Teaching Tomorrow Podcast

In this week’s episode, our hosts have a deep discussion with Michelle Gierman about how Gifted and Talented education fits within a MTSS Framework. Michelle comes to us with over 20 years in education from elementary through college. She currently serves as the AI Strategist and gifted education coordinator in the Avondale School District where she co-founded the GATE Magnet School. We hope this conversation will stretch  your understanding of Gifted and Talented education, and how we can widen the aperture of MTSS to support all students at all achievement levels. 

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening. Wherever you happen to be listening to this, the one and the only. Although if you are searching Teaching Tomorrow, yes, you might find other podcasts, but this is the only Teaching Tomorrow podcast with Jay, Katie, and Steven. I am but one of your hosts. Katie, we always say stick with the numbers. So I'm.333333% of our hosts. I'm Dr. Stephen Sneed. I'll let my hosts introduce themselves.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

Hi everybody. Jay Hafner, Oakland Schools Literacy Consultant. Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_04 0:45

Yeah, Katie Morrison, math consultant with Oakland Schools, happy to be here as well.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

And today is pretty special. I keep saying that like every episode is that. I mean, every episode is special. We're all special. It's like your children, right? All of them. Katie's laughing because we we all have multiple children.

SPEAKER_04 1:03

Well, I'm actually wondering where you're going with this. All of our children are special. Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:07

I mean, there might be one that, okay, we're gonna, you know, like play at the park and they really like the thing that we like to do, and the other one's like, but like all of them are special. So all of our episodes here at the Teaching Tomorrow Podcast are special. This one's pretty unique, though, because we're gonna be talking about gifted and talented education. What is gifted and talented education? And I'm not so certain that the public has uh even we professionals have like quite an accurate gasp, uh grasp of what that might be. Yeah. So we're gonna talk about it today with a very special guest we'll bring in in just a minute. But as of course, we'll engage in our typical banter of, and I'll tell us to you, Katie. W in your head, what is gifted and talented education? How do you make that thing work? Like within an MTSS model, right? That's all the rave now. I guess the other end of the triangle? I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. Oh, our guest is nodding her head. So I think you I think you you pinpointed it for us, Stephen. Yeah, there are a couple things I was thinking about in preparation for this. So the first one, yes, because we're really thinking about this group of students and how they fit into like the bigger system that we have within within our schools. And it feels like so often now, when we talk about MTSS, specifically from the academic side, we're really talking about like intervention for students who aren't meeting the grade level expectations. And it feels like that really monopolizes a lot of the conversation. Um, and so I feel like on, you know, from Oakland school side, we're really supporting districts and teams to think about how to build a tier one system that supports, and then from a school side, we're like, yeah, but we've got all of these kids that are in these, you know, low-performing grade bands, and how do we how do we build them up? So I think that's a part of the conversation for today is how do we expand what our definition and thinking about our MTSS system is not being exclusively from an intervention uh for students who aren't meeting needs standpoint. And then the other thing I think about is when I was a teacher, I never worked in a school or a district that had a specific like gifted program. And so it always, or a teacher or like a different curriculum or a place, right? However you're defining that for where gifted students are supported, it was always on the expectation of the teacher to come up with ways to both differentiate and scaffold down while also providing expansion opportunities up. And that feels so overwhelming as a teacher. I remember like being in a place where you're sitting there saying, Of course I want to do what's best for all of my special children. But I also only have set amounts of time, set amount of like expectations I can get through. So often it feels like I'm going more and more towards the middle. And really thinking about if that's how teachers feel, then it really is our job as leaders, both at the building level and district level, to help provide the supports to ensure that teachers aren't feeling that weight of providing all of the exclusive differentiation, especially when you don't have specific gifted programs or teachers or um set curriculums for those students.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Or even like the support, the knowledge base to be able to design and event systems that do support and engage these students. And you're right, like teachers have all this weight. We put all of this weight on the teachers now. We really have to unthink some of our current existing systems to really think differently about how we might serve kids. Jay, what do you say? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:51

Yeah, I'm I'm curious to talk to our guests today and have you know ask and talk through a lot of different things, some which are system related, I think is an important conversation uh to have, but also like framing it really specifically to the kids and and the child. Like where in what ways are we is the system designed to sort of identify a child as gifted and talented, and what does that mean? And and and what are the repercussions of of that and and making sure that we're serving the needs of the students. So I'm curious about that because I think like over the course of time, there's been an evolving nature to gifted and talented programs and the way in which we provide supports uh to students that are identified as gifted and talented. I think another thing that I'm really fascinated by is there there just seems to be a lot of like there isn't like a uniform understanding within the structure to say that like this is the work we're doing for gifted and talented students across the country for sure. Not even within the state and probably even within the county, from like one area to the next. Uh the systems, I'm not sure. And I want to unpack it a little more to see like in what ways are the systems serving each other, aligned with each other, or in conflict with one another. And so I think like when I was when I was thinking through this, I started with the question of thinking like, okay, so like is this child gifted? But then I'm like, that's a pretty like existential question that's got a lot of nuance to it. So maybe if the question that we're grappling with instead, it's not is this child gifted, but what does this child need? It gets us a little closer to the systems-based conversation around MTSS and the role it plays within. So those are those are just the thoughts I had. And really, like a lot of times when we have a guest, I feel close to the issue itself and in the unpacking and hearing this one, I'm really curious to hear what our guest has to say and feeling like engaged in doing a little learning myself around ways in which uh w we can we can do the best that we can for these kids.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

You know, that today's topic really stretches me. You know, I'm being fully transparent because when I think about system building, you know, obviously uh no matter the date that you're listening to this podcast, we are talking about like PA 146 and literacy and making sure all children and so my default position is trying to help students who aren't yet at proficiency and growth. And so today's conversation is stretching me to really think about okay, yes, and your system also needs to meet the kids who are already there and they're past there. They need something a little different.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Um and and I'm a sucker for public schools, man. I love public schools. Like this this is the only thing I've ever done professionally has been public schools. And I think it's a challenge for us in the public space, a good challenge that we need to embrace is to think about and design uh systems of support for gifted students as opposed to alternative, well, go to the private school down the street. And not that I'm shading private schools, if if people independently to choose to do that is after they choose the best of their family, that that's great. I want a high quality public education for all students. And we really have to sit and really think all means all. And although that's like, oh yeah, that's right. But when you really sit and think of it, ooh, right, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Not just some, not most, or not like a specific one-identified population, but everybody. So, Jay, I'm I'm with you in your curiosity, my good man. Uh, Katie, I believe you are going to introduce. Yes, I am.

SPEAKER_04 8:44

I'm so excited to introduce our wonderful, wonderful guest, Michelle Gearman. So, Michelle comes to us with over 20 years in education from elementary through college. She currently serves as the AI strategist and gifted education coordinator in the Avondale School District, where she co-founded the Gate Magnet School in Avondale. Additionally, she serves as an advocacy chair for the Michigan Association for Gifted Children and is the AI ambassador and AI State steering committee member for Michigan Virtual. So Michelle has a lot of things going for her. And a lot of titles. Yes, and a lot of titles.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

You know, I'm in good company because I'm also very curious. And that's what keeps me seeking opportunities to learn more, and that's where all these extra hats come on. All right. Um but I love that you're curious. That's the best place to be when to talk about something. And so I think since we're start, I heard you starting with curiosity. I'm gonna start with maybe just some misconceptions that can be out there around. Break it down, break it down. Yes. And so um, one of them is when we think gifted children, we think high achieving. A lot of times that's what, like if you just say close your eyes and picture, you know, gifted children learning. Um, that's you picture things like that, like young Sheldon and things like that, where they have this high achieving capacity, and they may have some differences um socially or little things like that, but people don't picture um like two E or twice exceptional students. People don't picture underachieving gifted students, of which there are many, um, because of the fact that we don't have systems in place to engage them specifically. And gifted so twice exceptional going along with that, what does twice exceptional mean? So you are gifted, but you also have dyslexia. There is a correlation. You also have ADHD, there is a correlation. You might be on the ASD spectrum, and there giftedness has a correlation with all of those. Um, and not just twice exceptional, but gifted students in general have something called asynchronous development. And people think of that as, oh, you know, you have a seven-year-old, and they can do ninth grade math, but um socially they behave more like a four-year-old. And so they think of things, but really it can also be that you have skills in one area, one way of thinking, maybe verbal linguistic, but you are underdeveloped in executive functioning or your numeracy or things like that. So um to be gifted can look so many different ways. Yeah. And so, um, and I love that you're talking about, you know, the empathy for teachers too. So step one, as Jay pointed out, would be identification. How do we know what these kids need? We don't have to call them gifted or or anything, but if I notice a student is struggling perhaps with reading um and understanding sound and letter correspondence, you know, we're thinking maybe they maybe they have an issue with dyslexia, maybe they haven't had the right instruction. But what do they need, right? They need for us to to use the science of reading, right? And to up the intensity as much as we need to until it works. And it's the same thing for gifted kids. If they're not engaging in the content, there could be some asynchronous development, there could be some gaps. There could be some ways that um their emotional intensity or their need for autonomy and relevance um is really what they need. And so when you think about things like universal design for learning as a tier one approach, which I know Oakland Schools is amazing. I've been to your universal design uh learning things. And there's a lot you can do with it.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

We didn't even pay her to say that.

SPEAKER_03 12:38

Well done. We can end the episode now. We've got to pay her to say that.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

They did it. Um but really it does work well because if you are embedding right in there a lot of voice and choice and some different differentiated experiences students can have, um, gifted students might need to choose in some subjects something that has more scaffolding. They might need more thin slicing in and in math for something. So um it works for everybody, right? It is universal design for learning, but um that's really the tier one approach. If you are identifying some students and you're saying, okay, their their needs aren't being met, I'm not sure why. And now that I've heard of this thing, this gifted, what is that? What does it look like? And I can definitely share some resources for any listeners that would like them. Um there's some free modules online that are free to to anyone on edupaths because we don't have mandates or funding in Michigan. We haven't since um around 2009. It's been a while. So it's it's not we don't we don't have like a lot of conversation around these things. And so it's like, okay, well, where are the resources? I'd love to identify these kids. I'd love to get some professional development around that. But because there is no mandate and there is no funding, um, whereas when it comes to the science of reading and dyslexia, there is there are mandates or if there's funding, um, it's harder to come by those resources. And so, you know, I want to frame today around some very low prep, um getting started things like identification and resources. And then if you do, if you're at a place as a listener where you're you have good tier one, you have an understanding of what gifted students might look like when they're not engaging or they're asking more questions than they are answering them. Um, high achieving students, their hands always up, they've got all the answers. You can have high achieving gifted students, or you might have a gifted student who asks a lot of questions, doesn't produce a lot of work, even though verbally it sounds like they could. You know, what's going on there? Um and also gifted students come from all different backgrounds. When you when you do have some sort of universal testing in place, um, you are reaching so many more of your underserved populations, and people sometimes forget to see how many underserved populations fall into that gifted category and what serving them can do for their for their life in so many ways.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Well, Michelle, let me let me ask you this this question because we like to we we hope we have a bifurcated audience here teaching tomorrow or classroom teachers like what can you do tomorrow? But then also like school leaders, like like what how can I think about my school and supporting my kiddos? So talk to the the building leader or the district leader who's listening to this right now. What might be some things that they could do at a broader school-wide and or district wide level to really get into uh identifying and supporting students who are gifted. What could our leaders do?

SPEAKER_00 15:40

I think being curious would be the the first basic thing and saying, I want to know more about what gifted students might look like or need so that then they can find those resources. And we live in a world where it's not super difficult to find resources, but making sure those resources are high-quality resources that do talk about the many portraits of gifted learners because there are many. Um and if that leader, you know, is curious about that and learns about that and finds resources to share to just bring that shared understanding and how can we make space for that? I'll be honest. When we think about equity, when you start to make space for this understanding of portraits of gifted learners, that time, that energy, it's not gonna come from that extra time and energy you had laying around because that doesn't exist. You're gonna have to say to yourself, why is this important in our district right now? And how much time can I carve out from somewhere else? When is it a good time to do that? Yeah, when is an appropriate time to be okay to do that? Um, and everyone's in a different place with whether they have time, capacity, you know, and readiness to do that. But being curious, you can start now. And when you have that spare time to find out things on your own to start to share, you also might want to pull your community. Who in your community already knows some things? I bet you have some parents of gifted students who just are very curious about how to serve their child and advocate for their child. So you'd be surprised, even in our 28 districts in Oakland County, how many parents of gifted children there are that I've spoken to who have a lot of knowledge around because they were trying to figure out what portrait of a gifted student does my baby belong to and what do they need. So draw on that capacity that you already have. That's another way to be curious. Um, so those would be some good first first steps.

SPEAKER_04 17:37

Yeah, I think one of the things we love to do is talk about best practices. And I love that you dove right into telling us about what's something the teacher can do. And Stephen brought us in to think about leaders. I wonder if we could like step back a little bit because I think there's a couple things that you've elicited in the conversation that I think are worthy of like greater exploration. So the first is that the state of Michigan, based on what you said, doesn't currently provide additional money or resources for specific gifted education programming. Is that correct? That is very sadly correct. And so I am hoping you might be able to shed some light on Avondale's story, right? We said in your introduction that you helped co-found the Gate Magnet program at Avondale. And we love highlighting and elevating sharing stories and want to make sure that Avondale gets all the credit and um shoutouts that it deserves. So I wonder if you could, as much as you are willing to share with us, like what is Avondale's story and journey in in creating this kind of programming and space in your district?

SPEAKER_00 18:40

So yeah, I would love to tell Avondale's story. Um so it's shout out to Avondale. Thank you. Um so Avondale started really with this particular journey based on some parents who came to the board and said, are you willing to look into serving gifted students and kind of bringing up some of the misconceptions right away and some of the things that they felt their children needed? Um and one thing I love about Avondale is I have to say Avondale is a district that doesn't mind being unique, doesn't mind trying new things, and it's small enough and family enough that those lines of communication are tight enough that you can kind of make change in a at a reasonable pace. And so they said yes. And so I'll try to include the most important parts on the timeline because I could go into a whole fireside chat for like an hour and I won't do that.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Well, we'll bring you in for like a part two.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

Season two, part two.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Um but so then the work began and they started saying, okay, and so they found myself and Kate Martin, and um we began the work and began design and Kate had a background in uh North Carolina with gifted education. I had a background um in all of my education. I have a gifted son, and so I had just always been passionate about that. So even though Michigan didn't have things in place when I was implementing things, um, that's where my curiosity started from. And so we had kind of a an interesting mix of skills ourselves, and we dove right into best practices and gifted education and um what are some different curriculums like we liked Jacob's Latter and William William and Mary. We talked about curriculum compacting, which is kind of a tier two thing. We talked about pre and post assessments to really understand, meet kids where they are. Um, and so just really got into a lot of discussion over like a whole summer. Um, and when we and then we had to start with the the one of the hardest things is identification. And so we've had a journey through that. We started with we had our NWEA testing and we had these writing samples and some different things that first year. We now and also include the Cogat over the last several years, which is a cognitive abilities test. Um and so that's where it started. And that first year, you know, what that we did our uh screening, we realized we need to change a couple of things about the screening um to make it and so in including the COGAT. Um, and we learned that wow, you know, we are getting many different portraits of gifted learners, and they are some of them are very high verbal linguistically, some of them it's math. They're not globally gifted in every subject. Wow, we have some intense emotions, some asynchronous development, some twice exceptional students with high needs. Um, and we, you know, we expected that, right? Because we were we had background and we we talked about it. But even with that small sampling of population, it just it was obvious this is hard work. It takes time. And we intentionally grew slow from the beginning because we needed to keep adding on systems and adding on multi tiered systems of supports so that we could get to a place um to Expand. And so I will say that I think that was our secret sauce was growing slow enough, being small enough, meeting often enough, and staying really student centered. Um, and you do have to communicate with the families quite a bit because of the uniqueness of um the portraits of gifted students as well. And you have to do that with all students. Um, but these parents are usually ready to advocate. And that is an extra challenge. As a parent of a gifted child, I was ready for it because I know what it feels like to feel like you need to advocate and no one even knows what you're talking about because there's no system and no vocabulary in place and you're talking a foreign language. Um, so that's been one of the most wonderful parts is really listening to families and getting to a place of understanding and really seeing the children and helping each other um from both sides. And um, yeah, so that would be like the start of the journey. And and from there we've just expanded as we could. Um, of course, we've had difficulties like you know, change in leadership, which we're in such an excellent place now, but that's hard. Changing buildings, that's challenging.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Um, changing curriculums, you know. And so all of those things along the way, um, the trajectory is has a little bit up and down as we go towards continuous improvement. Right now we meet weekly as a team for our gifted programming, and um, that's hard to commit to, but without it, we wouldn't be able to do what we do.

SPEAKER_03 23:35

Yeah. I wanna I wanna talk a little bit about coherence across the system that we're talking about in regards to to gifted and talented. And I mentioned this earlier that it feels in and you mentioned it also, this this idea that we don't even have like a really a coherent language, even from like one area to the next in how we talk about or even define gifted and talented, let alone be able to identify and then provide the supports. The one thing that I have heard in this conversation that does bring a little coherence and understanding is the relationship it has with MTSS. MTSS is beginning or or it is in an area where it's a coherent language of understanding. We definitely have different levels of implementation, but I think whether whether you're living in Avondale or Ferndale or Michigan or New York, there is an understanding around MTSS and its inherent understanding of what it's supposed to do. So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about, you know, so I guess it's like a two-part question. Number one, the way in which MTSS specifically plays a role in providing support for gifted and talented students, that's number one. And number two is like from there, what other conversations are you having, if any, with like those in neighboring districts or those in neighboring states? Like, where is that conversation happening to sort of bring just a little more alignment and coherence around what it is we mean when we say gifted and talented?

SPEAKER_00 25:05

That's an excellent question. So for the multi-tiered systems of supports in Avondale, um, for me, this is my third year as the gifted education coordinator. So I'm in all seven buildings, right? We have our magnet school, we're it's all public school. Um our magnet school is a center program. Um, and so the teachers there have had more training with some of those high needs for SEL, emotional intensity, and things like that. Um, but we do also, I am in all the the buildings for tier one. And a lot of what we do is we talk about 3P learning, UDL. Um, I help teachers look at different data to identify students. Um, we piloted using the Naglieri nonverbal assessment in one of our buildings. And um, you know, we you know, what I love about that is um it's nonverbal. It's completely pictorial directions. And so we do have, you know, you have some ELD students and some students who um might be in special ed but also be gifted. And so I was it's really great to have these experiences where teachers have this like paradigm shift or this mind shift of what does it mean to be gifted? Um, how might that present? And so just any time I'm seeing in buildings where we're able to reach more students. So tier one is really that we are trying to increase the culture of understanding around what giftedness might look like. And um, sometimes it's your students who are high energy and uh I'll just be honest, a behavior problem. Um, and they're bored and they refuse to engage. I mean, they're saying I already know this, but they refuse to even show you because for them, doing something that feels irrelevant feels unfair and they have this strong sense of justice. And so the inclination is to be like, well, they must not know it, or and sometimes they don't. I won't say gifted students don't sometimes say this is too easy because they're the fear of that identity complex and they actually don't know. That happens too. So many things happen. But um, but just building this understanding. And what I love about it is, you know, like at Avondale High School, the teachers there, if they see a student that you know, their their papers are all a mess, they don't turn things in on time, and it does they're not gonna say, well, how could they be gifted? Because they know asynchronous development, lack of executive functioning, that could be a sign of giftedness. But I'm hearing things they say and I'm seeing some data that really doesn't match up with their performance. So what does this student need? Or what am I even, what is learning and what am I assessing in the first place? Like, why is there a mismatch in general, right? And so, because um, we know we gifted students really do, um, just to be a little, you know, in the field for a minute, they really do have this need for purpose and they want to learn and they're curious, and they have these intense emotions and existential crises about is life worth anything? Does anything even matter? Is this all a joke? What is school? Why am I here? And so um, when you can channel that and really get to understand them and make school relevant for them, um, it can be a beautiful thing and it it really is kind of contagious. Like I love working with students, you know, in all of the buildings. And sometimes it's not, it's the buildings that aren't a center program that can be the most rewarding because families who had no idea their child was gifted are finding that out. Um, students who are behind in reading um are being recognized because we're seeing, oh, you're you have some of these gifted tendencies. And so um there's other ways for that to show up. And when students have these ways of demonstrating who they are and being themselves, they they do, and they're they might be in intervention and gifted supports. It can happen, you know, and so just seeing children for who they are and seeing what they need, what whoever they are, is tier one. And then just universal design for learning um is also part of that. And when you're doing projects um at any level, you know, high school, middle school, elementary level, there's a chance for everyone to see themselves in that solution. What is that problem you're working on? Um, I can see myself in that solution. I don't have to be someone who goes to college to see myself in that, and not all gifted students want to go to college or need to, right? And so, like just providing those opportunities for everybody to feel a sense of belonging and be seen and have the learning be relevant to them. So, kind of breaking out of some of the linear models can really help you to be able to do that. And so being flexible, that that's the tier one. And so then tier two, of course, is gonna be getting into pre and post assessments, maybe some curriculum compacting. That is a lot of work if you haven't had um professional development in that area. It's not something you can just say, I'll do that tomorrow. Um, it's hard and it takes time and carving out space for that is hard. Tier two, it's hard to go to the tier two level because then tier three might be an actual grade acceleration, where maybe you have your two, three hallway, second and third grade hallway, um teaching second, third, and fourth grade math or or more or beyond. It takes a lot of teaming. So to go beyond the tier one, it's really about being a team, collaboration and unity with your team.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

But let me ask you this question. I know we're running out of time here. Uh just to be clear, like Avondale Gate is a school. Like you have a separate school, so it's not like a program, it is a school.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

It's a school, it's its own building, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

It's its own building. What made you all decide to go that route as opposed to like a program in schools or like here's some extra things for teachers to do? Like, what was that like you're at the crossover points, like, ooh, we need to do something really different here with a with an entirely separate school? How did that decision play out?

SPEAKER_00 30:48

I think it was listening to our community that had already been in schools that were trying to do that, and we already were a district that did talk about differentiation. We already had quite a wide variety of learning abilities. Um and so we started our first year in Woodland. So we were just two classrooms in Woodland. We had 30 kids our first year. Now we have over 400 just for the gate magnet program.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Wait a minute, hold up, pause. You have how many kids?

SPEAKER_00 31:13

We'll have over 400 next year.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

400 next year.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

From a staff of two, just me and Kate doing the curriculum design, the everything to now a staff of like 30, over 30. So it's that's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 31:24

Yeah. How long did it take you to grow that?

SPEAKER_00 31:27

So from 2017 until now. Wow. Yeah. And and that might sound fast, but I feel like we, you know, we could have gone faster based on the needs and the people who wanted to be a part of the program, but um, you know, we tried to go as slow as we possibly could. But the people who initially came to us um asking for this and came to the board asking for this, and the things they were talking about really did lend itself to a cohort of students that would get highly specialized instruction. Um, and students that really needed, you know, we had even in that first couple of years students that were many grade levels ahead. Um, and so we were like, okay, we do want to be able to um talk about the UDL principles. And it was called something a little bit different back then, but we wanted to be able to talk about how to meet these kids' needs and do some pre and post assessments. And that culture started everywhere and started to spread, especially at Woodland where we were housed. Um and Woodland tradition, you know, was doing a lot of the things that we were doing with the tier one as far as differentiation and pre and post test and things like that. So we teamed with them. Um and then with the kids who are actually a part of those classrooms, a lot of them did have some higher needs and did really have more um and so for them, we really do believe in homogenous grouping being an important part of a gifted student's day, meaning they are able to learn alongside peers at the same level and challenge each other and motivate each other. But there's also some time um for mixed grouping as well. Um and right now when I work with students, it's uh it's push-in where I co-teach with teachers in the classroom. It's pull out where I have cohorts in different in all the different buildings, and then they bring their learning into the classroom and it spreads. And when kids are presenting learning and other kids say, I want to do that, can I do that? Yes, you can. It's for everyone. You like, like you want to read that challenging book? Absolutely. Let's support you so that you're able to do that. So I think it's important to note you don't have to isolate these kids. You want to be able to have some of that homogenous grouping and those that cohorting time for them. Um, but you also want to have some time for them to be a part of the whole world and and have as much social experience as possible. So that's important too.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Well, speaking of time, man, we definitely need to bring her back backhand for our part two. I feel like we've barely scratched the surface. Yeah. But what's such a rich conversation? We're gonna transition to our hot topic time where we're just gonna throw out a little or a a hot, hot take, hot takes rather, uh on this. Uh I'll kind of go first, but really quickly. Budget. If you are a school leader, yeah, you need to really be thinking about this is a population of kids that probably is underserved in your space. And as leaders, uh and even for my teachers who are aspiring leaders as well. Uh how do we put our money where our mouth is? So if this is really important, if we really want to support this, you know, obviously there's larger conversations at the state, but even within your cool community, how can we allocate resources in such a way that support the this these these group of kids? That's my hot take. Jay, what about you? What you want to do?

SPEAKER_03 34:38

Yeah, I mean, I was struck by, you know, the uh this the uh the fact that you brought to the table that Michigan hasn't funded gifted and talented education since, what was it, 2009? Since 2009, and that gets me thinking like when there is a lack of funding, there tends to be a lack of urgency around creating systems of support around it. So as Steven said, let's put our money where our mouth is. I'm thinking we need to put our money where our systems aren't and and figure out a way to create systems and lean in MTSS in a way that maybe takes the triangle and makes it more of a diamond that becomes a little more inclusive of the needs of gifted and talented students. The other thing I was struck by, and I think it's important to mention here really quickly, is you mentioned on a number of occasions parents advocating on behalf of their students to boards. You yourself have had to advocate on behalf of your own son. And while we definitely encourage all the parent advocacy, if parent advocacy is the thing that's driving impact in a district, that's an equitability issue. That means we don't have the systems there to service the students. If it takes parents at board meetings to advocate for groups and subsets of students, we are failing them on an equitability basis. And so, yeah, that's that's my hot take. Let's put our money where our systems aren't and really take a really close hard look at ways in which we can turn the triangle into a more of a diamond support within MTSS.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

Because you know what they say about diamonds. Diamonds are forever. Hopefully that didn't violate copyright. Katie, oh, it did.

SPEAKER_04 36:18

Oh, I was I thought you were gonna say something about a shape that was really hard to break, but no. Okay. Um so yes, y'all go deep today, right? So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um yeah, I was thinking, you know, there's something that Michelle said, building off of what Jay said, um, about like really thinking about your system and saying I'm gonna have to carve out yes money, yes, resources, think about my system, but also like the time and the energy, right? To really think about like if I give my time and energy to this, it means inevitably I'm going to have to take away from somewhere else. And so my hot take is like thinking about like a meeting structure that already exists, right? So when we have our weekly or bi-weekly or monthly MTS meetings where we're looking at data and we're looking at students, and we typically ask questions about what students aren't. I'm going to push everyone to ask a second question that has them really thinking about well, what students are ready to go further? And what are we specifically doing to support those students who have shown us and proven to us that they're ready to go beyond what we're doing?

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Go ahead, Katie. Well, as always, we leave our last hot take to our esteemed guests. You take us out. What's your hot take?

SPEAKER_00 37:39

Well, you three all had hot takes that give us a lot of work to do and things to think about. And I think I want to have a hot take of hope and just say, I think it's beautiful that you even wanted to you approached me to do this podcast, meaning that you care about it. I love that that Oakland Schools is actually saying this is something we want to start thinking more about. And um, I do think that there is a lot of opportunity to advocate at the state level. I do have uh Day on the Hill in Lansing April 22nd, and we're we're trying. I want you to know that I care a lot, and I am trying. And we are meeting with legislators, we have lobbyists, and so um it's been ongoing work and there's a lot of dead ends, just like everything in life, but we will never give up. I promise you, I won't give up. So together we can do more, and every little tiny step we make, if it doesn't get you to that finish line real quick, it's still all rolling together, rolling along. So any little tiny step you make towards serving gifted students is making an impact, I promise. Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_03 38:41

Yeah, I just uh want to just give you, Michelle, a huge thank you for uh not only joining us today, but the work that you do. Yes. Uh you I know you you come in and you have great support with the colleagues you work with at Avondale, but when we think about just the larger ecosphere of education, it can feel pretty lonely in the path that you're trying to carve and the supports you're trying to bring uh for students. So a huge thank you uh to Michelle Gearman for joining us today and to all of you uh for spending this time with us. We hope you found something here to inspire your own practice and spark new ideas for your classroom and school community. So we hope you will join us next time for are we calling it our season finale?

SPEAKER_01 39:25

Season finale.

SPEAKER_04 39:25

Season finale season one of the. We made it.

SPEAKER_03 39:28

Yes, we've made it to the season finale of our yes, of our podcast. Join us next time for that uh exciting conversation that I know you won't want to miss. In the meantime, you have two more chances, this episode and next, to follow or subscribe to Teaching Tomorrow, wherever you get your podcasts, and leave us a rating or comment. It helps other educators find these conversations. Jay, you didn't tell them. Tell them what? I tell them. You tell them. That's not my job. There you go. That's your job. And if you liked what you heard, please share this episode with a colleague who could use a little inspiration in the work that they do. Until next time, keep teaching, keep learning, and keep building the tomorrow your students can believe in because here at Teaching Tomorrow, we believe.

Jay, Katie, and Steven sit down with Jackie Bury, the proud principal of Centennial Middle School from South Lyon Community Schools to learn about her amazing story of implementing schoolwide PBIS from the ground up. Hear the inspirational journey of the Centennial Middle School team’s embrace of system thinking and positive culture to support healthy student behaviors. They expand PBIS implementation beyond mere reward tickets to truly transform the way in which teachers come together to support student learning. 

SPEAKER_05 0:15

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon, wherever you happen to be. This is the Teaching Tomorrow Podcast with our esteemed hosts.

SPEAKER_03 0:23

Let me start off with yes, he is my main man's 100 grand. Jay Hafner, Oakland Schools Literacy Consultant. Excited to be here on a very cold Friday. And I'm also very well caffeinated. Well, very, very like. We actually came for a coffee and I ordered a large, and the barista refused to give me the large and gave me the small. I've never been cut off. Because they read your energy. You're at a medium. Yeah, they're like, no, no, no. Not even a medium. They were like the small. It's like a shot of coffee, is what they it's so small. And yeah, she was like, no. So she knows you. I'm feeling it. You're feeling it.

SPEAKER_05 1:02

Yeah. Well, who else is feeling it? I'm bringing our second guest, but second, but certainly first, because she is the best dang old math maticks education improvement consultant in all the land in the Tri County area.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

I appreciate that. Katie Morrison, math consultant, Oakland Schools, happy to be here.

SPEAKER_05 1:17

And I am but one of your many hosts, 33% of the Teaching Tomorrow podcast with Jay, Katie, and Stephen, Dr. Steven Sneed. I am very excited about this topic and this case, because I have done some work with our esteemed guests around this topic, which is how does a school implement school-wide PBIS? How does that happen? Like school-wide PBIS. And first of all, we got to break down some of these letters. We always do have the alphabet soup of stuff in schools, uh, but PBIS positive behavior interventions and supports. Um, but I I want to pick your brain for a little bit before we bring our guest out. Cause I, of course, I was on like Instagram reels thumbming through things, and I ran across a reel from an assistant principal who said, like, we're not doing PBIS anymore. Like, we're just we're just throwing it out. Teachers don't want to do it. All the tickets are just throwing it out. And I was like, uh, my heart kind of broke a a little bit in that moment. But I did kind of feel her in a sense that, okay, if it's really like one more thing to do, yes. Oh, I gotta fill out another one, you know, and there's no like real benefit or there's there's no joy in the work. Yeah, maybe it does kind of feel like, but I feel like, ooh, how do we avoid PBIS from being like one more doggone form that teachers have got to fill out for a thing? Um, and so I'm really curious about what our guest, our guest, who is a leader in this space, um, has done in that environment. But Jay, what say you? What's what's your general take on how schools can operate PBIS?

SPEAKER_03 3:01

Yeah, I think it's like a dispelling and overcoming some of the maybe misconceptions that float around PBIS and really making sure that we're clear as to what outcomes we're we want to achieve for our students when we're building uh a healthy climate and culture inside of our school. And so, you know, we we at Oakland Schools, we understand like alphabet soup burnout tie to initiatives all the time. Like MTSS burnout, DL burnout, PBIS burnout. If you got an alphabet soup and you pick that spoon up, whatever those alphabets are, there are there's burnout around it. And I but I think some of the reasons that happens is because we lose sight. If we can put the you know, sort of the alphabet uh soup aside, we lose sight of what it is we're really trying to achieve within the these frameworks. Um and if we can hone the message in on really creating healthy climates, safe spaces for kids, um, and and you know, really elevating the culture that we want to see in school, then it's PBIS are just four letters. It's the outcomes that matter most and and how we go about creating that. So yeah, I want to you know unpack that with with our guest and really dispel some of the uh the misconceptions and burnout that may come with any of these frameworks uh and keep it focused on healthy kids, healthy schools.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

Yeah, yeah. I was like really connecting with what you said, Stephen, because I think so often like PBIS does feel like that other thing or that one more thing. And so I'm really interested in learning like what does it look like to be cohesive within the system? Um and I think one of the things that makes it cohesive within the system is realizing that it's PBIS is not one person's job, right? Like PBIS isn't the dean of students to figure out or the MTSS coordinator, right? Like PBIS, if it's going to be sustainable and possible to like really be something that exists beyond like the matrix grid or the like you know, all of those things. And I think about oh gosh, yes, like ineffective PBIS systems, right? What do they have? They have like the endless amount of tickets that kids are making copy of in some way and like forgering in some way, or the grids, right? The big grids that are on the posters, and you like ask the kids and they're like, Wait, pride, what? Like, what are all those? Like, yeah. Um, and I I think it like it's because it's not cohesive and coherent in a way that feels like everybody's job and role and responsibility and making it happen. So I'm excited for our guest and maybe like shed some light on how she's like made it reality um and buy in and really be something that everyone feels like is possible so that it's getting to those outcomes that you're saying, Jay, like reminding us of like why we're doing it, but also feels like doable for the adults, like otherwise we can't like get out of the burnout feeling that it feels like another thing.

SPEAKER_05 6:00

Well, we've raised a lot of questions, but I think our guest has a lot of answers and perspectives to share with us today. And I think this might be be a first. We've had many people sit in our guest chair. We've had teachers, coordinators, assistant superintendents, and executive directors who have had been building principals in their life, but I think this is the first time we have a sitting building principal, a phenomenal leader from the South Lyon School District. Shout out to South Lion, which is an Oakland County district, by the way. Okay, I mean geographically.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

South Lion is Oakland County. They're us.

SPEAKER_05 6:37

We're claiming all of South Lion, right? Even though they're what in like Wayne and Livingston. Yeah, like three three different counties. Uh but she is the proud principal of CMS Centennial Middle School in the beautiful district of South Lion, the one, the only Ms. Jackie Burry. Jackie? Hey.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Hi, everyone. Welcome. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_05 6:59

We are so happy to have you here and some of the phenomenal things that you've done in your building. And just to give you some size, uh Centennial uh Middle School has what, 200 kids?

SPEAKER_00 7:10

925.

SPEAKER_05 7:12

925 beautiful little souls in that building. But how many staff?

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Over 112.

SPEAKER_05 7:21

Over 112.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Actually, I just counted yesterday.

SPEAKER_05 7:24

Just counted yesterday, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

So you're well aware of how many adults are moving and working within your system.

SPEAKER_05 7:31

So that that's a big system, right? Like across, you know, we we're very proud in the great state of Michigan. There are some entire school districts that are 900 students with a hundred or some staff. You have that just in one building, and that's a that's a big bear. Um, and so you experience all of the things uh of a school and middle school. Matter of fact, I think the last time I was there in your building, you were dealing with a thing in a lunchroom at that time. But typical happens every space uh where we have to reinforce expectations. Um but tell me, like, as a leader of a of a large school and a great community, how did you all get started on your PBIS journey? Like, why did you start there?

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Mm-hmm. So it was right after the pandemic. Yeah. 2021, we were looking at our behaviors, and at that point, we were seeing a wide variety of behaviors. Um, more than we could handle at that moment in time with the staffing that we currently have and had, and we weren't looking to increase any staffing at the time either. And so uh we were collecting data on behaviors.

SPEAKER_05 8:39

You had me at collecting data. I was go on, darling, go on. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

Yes, and so we wanted to find a system that would help us support the students and support the staff hand in hand. Um, and this is what it does for us. It really works out in both favors. It just makes a uh positive community, a positive culture in the building. And so that is one of the reasons why we got started with learning more about how to create a PBIS system within Centennial Middle School.

SPEAKER_04 9:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:11

Okay, so post-pandemic, and and we we're all there with you, right? Because we were all in and supporting schools at that time. You know, the children needed some support and reinv reinforcing, like this is how we enjoy the school space. Yeah. Uh so you see this uptick in and behaviors to say, hey, we want to respond with creating this PBI PBIS structures. What were some of the first things that you attempted to do with your staff?

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Okay. So we first had something called a blue ticket or blue slip, and that's where we started, and that was put in place before the pandemic.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

And it was pretty much ineffective after the pandemic because everyone went home and there was no one giving out blue slips at home to win prizes. Although we tried to do it electronically and that was kind of fun to do, it just did not work out very well.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Um, and so after we realized that that system wasn't working, unfortunately, we came up with a survey to the staff. What characteristics would you like to see in your students to try to figure out what we wanted to potentially put on a matrix one day to lay out those expectations. And so we surveyed the staff and they ended up coming up with a list of characteristics. And from that, my assistant principal and I sat down and we looked at those and decided we were going to go with the three Ps positive, prepared, and polite. So we ended up giving out, we kept the blue slips, um, and it was just one drawing per week on our weekly um news channel, which is Charger TV. And so they pulled five names or three names, I'm sorry, three names a week, and they would get a prize. But no one used it. No one was really giving out slips. We probably had a hundred slips for the whole year. Oh wow. Oh wow. Yeah, it was really uh low participation rates. Um, and so when we decided that we wanted to change that practice, we started back again from the beginning. So, whoever is doing this work out there, I'm encouraging you, you might have to go back to move forward.

SPEAKER_05 11:25

Talk to him, Jackie.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

You might have to go back a couple different times. And so we went back to the beginning, we resurveyed the staff. Um, and that took quite a bit of time because they weren't really quite understanding what PBIS was at the moment. So we had to do some teaching of what the system actually would look like, how it would benefit them, how it would change the culture, how the students would enjoy um the rewards or the culture that it would be building. Um, and so that took a little bit of time as well. So that took probably another year to survey them and to really dig deep into the work.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Um, and then we came up with our charge cards. So um we love our matrix right now, and that we have a team of people that work together. Are you gonna stop me?

SPEAKER_05 12:18

Yeah, I'm gonna stop you. So so you mentioned the word matrix a couple times. Just explain for our folks who are new to their work, uh, what are you talking about when you say matrix? What's that?

SPEAKER_00 12:28

So a matrix would be when you have a so I'm gonna do the three piece just to not jump ahead. It would be when you're laying out your expectations that you're looking to explicitly teach to your students. You're laying out the characteristics at the top, and then you're laying out which location you would like to teach your students how to behave in those certain areas. So for example, hallway, classroom, bus, um, and what expectations uh and how to behave go inside the matrix. So it's a table. Okay. Um and it ex it spells out and explains how to act in those locations per each characteristic.

SPEAKER_05 13:10

Okay. So you're kind of making like the expectations pretty clear. I'm gonna probably presume in like student-friendly language and not like it's it's not a dissertation. Yes, I've written one of those. I don't want to write one ever again. So you don't have like pages and pages and pages and pages and pages of of a thing in the hallway, but something simple that kids can understand, right? Um okay, so I I I apologize for interrupting. I just wanted to make sure people were listening were were were dialed into like, what's this matrix thing? Are we thinking about like Neo and like Yeah, not red pill, blue pill. Like, no. Whoa. No. Great film, but there's my matrix drop. Katie, you do know the matrix film, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:48

I mean, I know the film, but I've never seen it. So come on. I wasn't going there. You've seen the matrix film. Yes, I have. Yes. All right, all right. So like I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 13:57

Yeah, Jackie's with us. She she understands the distinction we're trying to draw between PBIS and Keanu Reeves.

SPEAKER_05 14:04

Keanu Reeves. Shout out to the Keanu Reeves. Matter of fact, Keanu Reeves, if you're listening, maybe you should sponsor some of the great efforts here at Centennial Middle School in South Line in the great state of Michigan. So anyway, you were talking about the development of your charge cards.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

So we ended up um scrapping the three Ps. We took down all the um matrixy matrices. Matrices that we hung up on the walls and all of our posters that went with it. Um, and we developed our PBIS team. And on the team sits a variety of uh staff members. So we have teachers, we have a psychologist, um, we have administrators, sometimes our counseling staff and social work staff will pop in to look at what we're doing as well. And um, what we ended up coming up with was a charge card because we are the Centennial Middle School chargers, and we want our students to charge and lead the charge. And so each of the charge represents a characteristic that we want them uh to have. So, for example, the C is cooperation, H is hardworking, C H A, A, adaptable, R responsible, G, grateful, and e empathetic. And yes, and our staff came up with that, and based on our values as a staff, that's what we wanted to see in our students.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

Yeah, yeah. So I think like going back to some of what we said at the beginning around like how PBAS might feel like something else or something that's on top of all of the things that we're already doing, for you and your staff, what did you guys either stop doing or streamline that made it feel approachable and doable for all of your teachers in your building?

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Well, we're definitely about like taking something off the plate when something is put back onto your plate. So um, in terms of taking things off of their plate, I think what we wanted to share with them is this is going to make your jobs way easier. We're hoping to take the discipline off your plate. We're hoping to take the parent phone calls and the emails home off your plate because our discipline was at that moment so high that and the frustration was so high. That was one thing that really was um palatable for our staff to understand and want.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

Yeah. So how did you go from like, because that's a compelling argument, right? For a teacher, like, yeah, that's what I want to stop doing. How did you guys go? Like, where was the buy-in to say, yes, I want that, but I'm gonna start doing this that I wasn't doing before with the three Ps? Like, what was that big like impetus that really started that like escalation of like this is gonna make a difference?

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Okay, so we had the teachers that were on the team who began the work for the charge card, and we also had three teachers pilot it. And when they piloted the program, they wanted to see how things worked in their classroom. And um, they really did a nice job of with the pilot. Okay. They um were able to bring back the information to the staff and share with the staff how it worked and the way that it worked. And so instead of saying, like, you know, student A, thank you for doing what you're doing, everyone just already knew take out your charge card. I'm gonna be stamping throughout the lesson. If I give you a thank you, or if I see you being respectful or I'm sorry, responsible or grateful, you're definitely getting a stamp.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

And we had one teacher that had students fill out stamp, like had complete charge cards almost every week. And I can tell you a little bit more about the charge card.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

If you want me to. It's um 10 spaces. Um, so we had a South Line company um that who makes posters. They helped us with our posters uh with the charge and all the uh attributes that we want to see in our students on the posters, but it's also listed on the charge card. And when they um see it in the classroom, when the teachers see it, they give a stamp and the stamp has a little charger on it and it says, you know, you're charging or chargers, and they stamp it and there's 10 stamps and then they turn it in. Okay. And then we do a uh prize, uh, we do a random prize um drawing. Drawing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

I don't know if I've ever, I'm sorry, I just like I feel like this is such an innovative idea. I don't know if I've ever heard of somebody doing a pilot for their PBIS like process.

SPEAKER_04 18:40

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

I mean, it's so often we hear about like the pilots for these really big things like curriculum buy-ins or new resource adoptions or programs are bringing in connected to academics. And what a novel idea to, especially with a staff that's so big. Like we got to find a small group and see if this works to scale inside of our system before we expand it out.

SPEAKER_03 19:01

So yeah, when I'm curious about the pilot, when did it start? Like when did you first start the pilot? How long ago?

SPEAKER_00 19:09

So uh it was not last school year, but the school year before. Right. So we started it mid-year actually, and the goal was to collect data on how the students felt about the program and how it changed the culture and community in the classroom. And so it started and we had like a six-week stint with it, and then we checked back in with the teacher to see how things were going.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

Yeah. So I wanna, I wanna, I guess, lift something you had said earlier about this multi-year initiative that you're gonna go, you're gonna take two steps back, one step forward, two steps back, three steps forward. It's it's a real journey and a process. And you know, I think about like, you know, it's like stepping on rakes, right? Like you're gonna step every initiative, you got your just rakes all around, and you're gonna step on these rakes, and but you gotta sort of keep plowing through in order to achieve the outcomes that you're looking for. And so I wanna like if we could pare this down, PBIS, into like one or two very specific things that we're looking for, what would you say? Because there's a lot out there that we could pull, but what is like at its root? What is PBS trying to do in a building? One or two of those core elements.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Yeah. Number one, I'd say community and culture. It really creates a positive culture in the building. And two, uh, it creates a a feeling for students to feel motivated and want, sometimes want to come to school. So it can work in a lot of different ways, but I would say that one, it's community, two, motivation.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

Community and motivation. So what are like how do you like rally? And you have a big you have a big staff and you got a lot of lot of kids too. I think that's interesting. I how many you said 900?

SPEAKER_00 21:09

925.

SPEAKER_03 21:10

920. 925. And it is like for those of you that are listening, it is Friday afternoon, and you you've been smile. I mean, you're you've done this entire thing with a smile on your face.

SPEAKER_05 21:22

He's a very happy building process. Very happy.

SPEAKER_03 21:24

925 kids, 100 plus staff members. Right. So when you're thinking about like how building this community over this multi-year process, what are also like what have been some of the sticking points where you've you got to a point you're like, oh man, like I I don't know if this is gonna, if we're gonna be able to keep moving forward. What were some of those sticking points you ran into over the last few years?

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Well, I would say you can't do it alone. Right. You have to do it with your team and you have to choose team members that really have a buy in for this. Uh, we opened it up to all staff and everyone. Everyone that applied or wanted to be on the team has been great on our team. That's great. Mm-hmm. We um I div I give them a lot of credit for what they've done. It's not one, it's one on one man job. Right. Um, and and there also needs to be time set aside for this as well. Uh like you said, it's multi-year. So we had the um focus going in that it was going to be about five years to change the culture, change the community.

SPEAKER_03 22:34

And you were you were upfront with that at the beginning, right? Like this could be a five-year initiative. This isn't something that's gonna solve itself in five days, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Yeah. Yeah. And so when the going got tough, I think we we lean on the fun things, we make it fun. We have a big wheel that we spin for the prizes. We um you they get multiple prizes when they turn in a ticket. And so the students are really on board with that. You know, anything from a Jolly Rancher to I gave out a PlayStation card today.

SPEAKER_04 23:06

Oh wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:07

So can you have 923 students? Like, is there an age limit? Can can I do it?

SPEAKER_00 23:14

No, no, PlayStation cards calling your name, huh? Like that.

SPEAKER_03 23:19

Was it that or the Jolly Ranchers that are calling your name? Yeah, it might be the Jolly Ranchers calling right.

SPEAKER_05 23:26

Well, one of the things, Jackie, you you keep saying this over and over again, and I'm wondering why you've made this choice as a leader to listen to your staff and to involve them in the decision-making process. So let me go dark for a minute. Uh-oh. Why not just suspend and give all the kids detention? Like life could be so simple. Like, teacher writes them up, you, you debat, we're gonna, we're gonna, you know, have a hard bar here at Centennial, you know, high expectations, you know. If you cross the line, bam, you get the you get the accountability hammer, suspension, detention, and so you'll learn through punishment. Why not lead that way?

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Well, we're all about the students. And I think a lot of our staff um has really been about the students. The staff is incredible at Centennial, and I love to listen to them and and their feedback. Um, and so we we do have high expectations, but we also want to celebrate when we see those characteristics that we picked out. And um, it's just better that way because like I said in the in one of the after for one of the questions, um our students feel motivated. They want to come to school, they feel like they have a place in the school when they're getting rewarded. Um, you know, when I'm walking into a classroom and saying, Hey, I got a PBIS winner, where is you know, so and so, and they the whole class just perks right up, like you know, we have a place in here. Um, and and they love it when they get the stamps too. Like it's almost a point of pride for them in a way. Um, so instead of suspending when we have discipline, um, discipline is meant to teach, it's meant to learn.

SPEAKER_03 25:20

That's good. Not punish that teaching.

SPEAKER_05 25:22

That's the line of the show right there. Like discipline is meant to teach.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yeah. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 25:26

Talk to me, Jackie. Talk to me.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Yes. So uh discipline needs to be meaningful. And uh sometimes suspensions and those types of things aren't what the student needs in that moment. And so just like any teachable moment, um, you got to meet your student where they're at and understand what's going on. Yes, we have these expectations, but how am I gonna get you to teach to how am I gonna get you to learn that that is not acceptable behavior in the in the school?

SPEAKER_05 25:56

But and at the same time, though, like you haven't said this word, but we've said this word a lot on the Teaching Tomorrow podcast with JK and Stephen, is shameless plug. Shameless plug to listen to all of our episodes, uh, is joy. Like you're really valuing like joy in a space, right? And you you probably realize as a leader, like you can't lead a joyful space by removing kids from it, right? So PBIS is about teaching, it's about addition to your knowledge and your repertoire, not subtracting like you did a bad thing, go away. You made a bad choice. How can we learn from this so that you can make good choices? Um, and I love that. I love that that you're you're lifting that up. Um but the other thing I was thinking about, like as I said earlier, you you you there's a lot of staff involvement. So I don't hear you and the AP went into the office, you wrote up a thing and just told say, all right, here's what we're doing. I heard surveys, I've heard teams. Why is it important to you to involve your staff in the decision making and operation? What do you what do you what what's the benefit of that?

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Well, they're the ones who are working through it.

SPEAKER_05 27:05

Oh, okay. All right.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

They're the ones that are going to be applying it in their classroom, so it's got to be something that they want to do and something that they see themselves doing.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Yeah, I'm curious, Jackie. So let's imagine that you have a teacher retire and you're gonna have a new teacher coming in. Um, and they say, Well, I'm a math teacher. Like, what does it mean? Like, what are the expectations for me as a teacher with the PBIS? So, yes, I get that there's the charge and that they stand for these attributes, and this is what I want kids to be doing, and I'll celebrate that. But what is my job and my role and in the forefront of it of like how I teach those expectations or what I look for? Like, can you explain a little bit? Like, what is the role of the teacher in that?

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Absolutely. And um, I kind of missed this part when I was explaining. We have expected lessons to teach once a month.

SPEAKER_05 28:00

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

So the team came up with um a handbook. We have a staff handbook that has all of our lessons in it. We put them in early in the school year so that if I'm a teacher and I'm looking and planning out to April, like most of my teachers at my school like to do, then they can see in April, this is the lesson that I'm going to allow it time for. Um, and so we have a handbook with all of our prescribed lessons. Um, they have to teach the matrix in the beginning of the school year. We have a full day to talk about the matrix and work that goes around that matrix. And uh we talk about the charge card too, and then everyone gets a stamp. It's actually on one of the first days of school. I know there are mixed reviews on when to teach this type of thing, but we ended up doing it on one of the first days just so that everyone knows what's what we're expecting.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

Yeah. So how this idea that like a healthy culture isn't an an expectation. It needs to actually be taught with intentionality, right? I'm burning my hot take here. So that's all right. Great as I scramble for another during the caffeine crash that uh is is soon approaching. We started high and it's only been like half an hour and you're like falling, falling fast. And the hot take is out. So uh yeah, so I I think that's a I think that's a really important point, though, to think about is the the way we that PBIS can help create some like predictability, even around the way in which we expect uh culture uh and our students to interact and behave with one another inside of of the school, but also like the importance of teaching, intentionally teaching through the the uh through through the things that you're talking about. How has that shown uh growth with the students? The the fact that you do these lessons with them on a regular basis versus before when you weren't doing them. What difference are you seeing in the teaching of our culture?

SPEAKER_00 30:00

A lot uh of change. So we actually have our lessons that have a hands-on component. We teach an example and then we also show them the non-example.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Oh, good.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Um, we teach them about the attribute, and then we also have our charger TV students. Um, they made videos on how to act and how to behave within. I'm sure they loved that. Yes, I'm sure all of the other kids love watching it. Yes, and we included Charlie the Charger, who's our mascot. Oh, and what is Charlie? Is he a horse?

SPEAKER_03 30:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

No, I wasn't connecting, but it was a horse. I'm like lots of animals can charge, right? No, only horse.

SPEAKER_05 30:44

A charger is a type of horse, but a charger is a type of horse.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Oh, okay. Well, there you go.

SPEAKER_05 30:49

A little equestrian science there today on teaching tomorrow podcast. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:52

And a little car talk here in Detroit, chargers being tied to like the Mustangs, the pony car. We'll talk about this. Yeah, we'll we'll talk about this off air. We we gotta update Katie on the pony car card.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

But anyway, so Charlie the Charger, who is a horse. Yeah. Katie's like back on top of the phone.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Back to Jackie.

SPEAKER_04 31:09

Back to Jackie.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

So uh they like seeing Charlie, and he's a part of the videos as well. Either doing an example or a non-example. And so we didn't want the students to do our non-example, we wanted the adults to show the non-example. Yeah, yeah. And so um, kind of Charlie do it, who was a teacher in the costume. Okay. Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

Is it is it one teacher always playing Charlie, or do you rotate the Charlie costume?

SPEAKER_00 31:36

We rotate the Charlie costume. We need to get a dry clean. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:40

It's probably like hot in there.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

It's very hot in there. I've played the part before, of course, as principal.

SPEAKER_05 31:46

So I don't mean to put you on the spot. Of course, I'm one of the data people at at Oakland Schools. And so can you uh broadly speak to, like, okay, so you've been been reinventing and implementing over the years. What were some of the changes that you've maybe globally noticed in student outcomes, whether that's attendance or reduction in uh office discipline referrals or reductions in uh suspensions or detentions? Like what data do you have a hunch that, oh yeah, we notice this is better?

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Um so we do collect data. We go through it every time we have a team meeting. Um and we have noticed that the classroom discipline has gone down. Um we are still working on our bus discipline. I know that all the middle school principals out there knows.

SPEAKER_05 32:38

That school bus is going round and round.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

If you talk about smells, I'm sure the bus would love to be dry cleaned.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

The bus itself. So uh that is one of the things the hallway and the classroom were our top focus points, and those areas have definitely decreased. Nice.

SPEAKER_05 33:00

So so uh how many years have you been a building administrator?

SPEAKER_00 33:05

This is my seventh year in the office. Okay. Um so I started off as an assistant principal that traveled between two middle schools. Oh wow. And then I was interim principal and now a principal. Now principal.

SPEAKER_05 33:16

So so you are an experienced, seasoned leader. So talk to that building leader that might be a little dissolution with PBIS. So like I mentioned earlier, like I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

Yeah, the one that was like, we're done with that.

SPEAKER_05 33:31

She was like, I'm done. We're not we're not doing any tickets, not doing any, like it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_04 33:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:36

Talk to that person. How can we make this work so that you get to that space where the teaching is more joyful, the kids are more motivated, and and we're in a in a space where we're seeing discipline as more of a teaching experience rather than a punishing experience. Talk to that building principal or assistant principal who's like, nah, P Bass. What do you what would you say to that person to get them to shift their perspective?

SPEAKER_00 34:02

I'd ask them to consider a couple things. One, what does your data say?

SPEAKER_05 34:09

She had me there. What does the data say? Hey, go ahead, Jackie. Come on, keep talking to me.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Uh, where what kinds of disciplinary infractions are you seeing? Where are you seeing them? And really take a look at that first. When you dive deep into that, what uh outcomes do you want to see? And what characteristics do you want to teach explicitly to your students? And then it's got to be targeted. Use your data to figure out where uh you want to target your instruction and get a team together, give them some time to um get their footing with the lessons that they're going to teach about this explicit character trait that you choose based on your data. And also um get to know your students too. If the and I'm sure principals do know them, but try to see them in all different kinds of lights, not just you're in trouble, let me talk to you now. Uh, you got to get in there and and see and get to see what the teachers are seeing on a daily basis as well. I think that's one of the reasons uh why it's been successful, especially with um our sixth grade staff, is I used to be a sixth grade teacher, so I'm guilty of going down the sixth grade hall and popping into those classrooms way more than going around the other parts of the building. And they all know that I'm guilty of that.

SPEAKER_04 35:39

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Um, but I got to see it firsthand, especially in those classes that were piloting the program. So that's another one that I would try is pick a teacher that would pilot it and see how it works out in their classroom, do a little experiment. Yeah. Um, and then and tailor your matrix as you go. And you're probably gonna have to take a couple steps back at some point. Um, we also gave the um TFI. Uh you're gonna have to help me with that.

SPEAKER_05 36:08

A tiered fidelity inventory. Say that five times fast. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

Yeah. So we gave that to the staff um because that's one of the reasons how we got the staff input on how it was working. Yeah. So I would ask that principal to take a look at that TFI and see what do you need to do to change the program so that it's working out for your students and your staff.

unknown 36:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:32

And if you need support around the TFI at Oakland Schools, Dr. Amber Tsar. Dr.

SPEAKER_05 36:37

Amber Tsar, we got to get her on here. We do. Shout out to Dr. Amber Tsar, my girl, Dr.

SPEAKER_03 36:42

Amber Zar. Who does a lot of TFIing. Yes. And supporting. And supporting and supporting.

SPEAKER_05 36:48

For sure around PBIS uh around Oakland County. Well, speaking about supporting, I'm gonna transition us to our hot topic here. Uh and our hot topic, well, not hot topic, our hot takes, where each of us takes a hot take on the uh idea of positive behavior interventions and support systems. Um Katie, would you like to go first? Katie's giving me that look like I didn't want to go first. No, no, no, no. This is great.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

I had to go last last time, and I was like so afraid that you guys would take mine. So yes, first is great, because then I can guarantee that nobody will have my hat take. Yeah, so I am building off of something that Jay said back in the beginning where he was talking about burnout, right? And he was saying that like all these alphabet soups, like they just are gonna greater contribute to burnout. And so I'm thinking about like, okay, well, we can't PBIS our way out of burnout then, right? Like that's not possible. And one of the things that I think was so beautiful about Jackie's story is that she really designed the structure and system around not just the students, but also the adults. And it feels like sometimes, and so maybe this is a hot take topic, um, is this idea that like, you know, when we when we overcommit and forget that like the adults in the system and the structure are the ones that ultimately are going to implement the thing. And we go only to thinking about the students and forget the role that the adults play. Sometimes we overshoot too much. And then that is when teachers and adults are feeling that burnout. And we know that we can't get our best from the adults that are working with the kids if they feel like the system that is being explained and expressed to them is too much. Like everyone's trying to do the best they can. And so I think something that's so amazing about what Jackie said is that she started small, she spoke to the adults, she got feedback from the adults and learned about how she could support them within that structure so that the system became sustainable. And so I guess my hot take is what Jackie is already doing, which is like get feedback and input from the adults so that you know whether or not what you're trying to PBIS is doable and possible for the adults on the system.

SPEAKER_03 39:01

Yeah. So I already let my hot take out of the bag about what I'm saying. That's okay. We can't even remember it.

SPEAKER_02 39:08

Just say it. Say it like it's new. No, I do in hot.

SPEAKER_03 39:11

I think I think what I'm coming to now and uh building off of just the conversations we've been having, I think when we create predictability, I said that earlier, predictability among both students and adults in the space of how we define our culture. Teachers and adults are there to be a part of that conversation and shape that predictable structure. Students become clear as to the expectations within this culture. When we get to that space, I think one of the best things about PBIS is that it can create a permission structure to have fun as a student. And as an adult. It's preferable. But I I do think with a lot of things, you know, maybe from pandemic, post-pandemic moving forward, that it's almost like we need a permission structure to have to have fun and joy in our lives with each other as adults and with the kids. And PBIS when when there's clarity on both sides and those predictable spaces are are there, it is a permission structure to really have joy and and fun in the in the hall. And I bet I can tell you you are a smile, you've smiled since you walked in here. You laugh that you hear laughter in your hallways, you hear laughter in your classrooms.

SPEAKER_05 40:41

Well, I can confirm of visiting the building. Like I felt the joy and love in the school space.

SPEAKER_03 40:48

Yeah, so that's it, man. If you're feeling burned out on PBIS, um, let's not ever get burned out on the idea that we want kids to have fun, and it's okay for us to have fun with them uh in our in the work we do.

SPEAKER_05 41:00

Yes. That was good, Jay. I like that. Yeah, I know. I was gonna say, Yeah, you like the two for one special. Two for one special. Um that's why you my hands a hundred grand. Imagine if I had gotten a large coffee instead of cut off and then the Jay show. He's gone. He's gone, ladies and gentlemen. Um, my hot take here, and I'm sure my my my colleagues who are at local schools can kind of relate to this. And Jackie, I think, because I'm imagining in your world you're hiring lots of people throughout your your your your tenure as as an administrator. Um I think like PBIS or something like that should be required learning for pre-service and in-service teachers. And I'm thinking about my own experience at a fantastic university, the University of Michigan, an undergrad. And I'm not that old. Okay, this year I turned 46, so I'm firmly middle middle-aged. Um, so I was an undergrad 20 years ago, uh, 20 uh yeah, 23 years ago. Um, I don't remember coursework on classroom management or student behaviors. I remember like a very generic ed psych class that kind of taught you some like theoretical concepts way up here. But I feel as though like teachers, you you learn the craft of how to create community once you get into the school, and that can either really go great or if you don't have the support, it can go sideways real, real quick. And so, what would it look like if PBIS were was a required component of your undergraduate teaching, you know, certification trackway? Um, and then when you began working as a part of your appropriationary years, this was a was a required component. Because no matter what you're teaching or what level you're teaching, you're going to be teaching children. And you're going to be teaching children who are on various pathways of really good decision making. And I think it's fundamentally unfair to create a harsh punishment environment around kids who literally mistake making is built into childhood and adolescence. We want to create an environment where they can learn and not create an environment that's so punitive in a nature that it disassociates them from the school community which they belong. But it first starts with we've got to teach the adults the right mindset, the right moves, the right how to do the expectations, even the mindset to discipline is teaching. Jackie, I love that you said that, and not discipline as punishment. Um, and so that starts with, I think, again, our pre-service and in-service teaching. So that's my hot take. Jackie, as always, with our with our hosts. We leave our hosts the the honor of having the last hot take of the episode. What say you?

SPEAKER_00 43:43

So my hot take is yes, get the staff's opinion on what they would like to do, but also don't forget to survey your students for what kinds of rewards and accolades and uh acknowledgement that they would want to see. As well. So we did a student panel and we asked them what kinds of things that they would like and how often did they get a reward and um all kinds of questions that related to their experience. And um, so it was really important to hear both sides, the staff. You shouldn't get burned out on doing something that's fun. And then also the students, what do you want to do that's so fun? Um, because it really is just all about having fun and enjoying your time together. With we all have six hours together here today. Let's make it fun, let's make it worthwhile and meaningful and learn through it and have a good time. So uh it's all about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:45

I love that energy. Well, we've had a great time with you here to J Jackie. Thank you so, so, so much. Thank you for your leadership in your building in the fantastic South Lion School District community uh uh at Centennial Middle School, CMS for short. Uh Jay? Yeah, Jay.

SPEAKER_03 45:01

The positive energy that you brought into the into this space today.

SPEAKER_04 45:05

Really, really after she worked all day.

SPEAKER_05 45:08

Well, well, like we're we're uh an audio only podcast, but if you could see in the studio, she has had varying degrees of a smile, but a smile throughout. Like this is a joyful leader, and I think that's exactly what we need to lead and be pioneering in this space.

SPEAKER_03 45:23

So I guess well, we hope that uh all of our listeners out there who I'm sure have as big a smile on your face after listening to the last uh 38 minutes or so of this podcast. We hope you found something here to inspire your own practice and spark some new ideas uh for your classroom or your school community. We hope you'll join us next time as we continue to elevate topics and voices that matter to you. In the meantime, do not forget. We say this every time. Every time. Every time, and we're gonna keep saying it. Do not forget to follow. That's right. Follow or subscribe to Teaching Tomorrow wherever you get your podcasts. Smash the like. And leave us a rating or comment. Have you read any rating or comments?

SPEAKER_05 46:07

Are there comments? I haven't seen any comments, but we do have like high star ratings on Apple Podcasts. I've seen that and on Spotify.

SPEAKER_03 46:15

I want to see some comments.

SPEAKER_05 46:16

Yeah, let's get some comments.

SPEAKER_03 46:17

All right, so thank you for rating. Please continue to rate and comment. I think we'd like to read. That's data for us. Maybe we can do a segment where we read some of the uh the comments. Let's read some of the comments that we might get. Don't threaten it. So that's a challenge to all of you out there. Um, leave some really good creative comments, and maybe we'll figure out a way to work them into future. Questions, ideas.

SPEAKER_02 46:38

What do you want us to talk about?

SPEAKER_03 46:39

Compliments season two. No, I'm at I'm hunting compliments.

SPEAKER_02 46:42

Oh, hunting compliments only. I'm hunting 20 minutes of Jay reading compliments of a large coffee.

SPEAKER_03 46:50

That's it. That's what I want 20 minutes of compliments that we can read here. Uh, but no, please do uh like or subscribe. It helps other educators find these conversations. And if you like what you heard today, share this episode with a colleague who could use a little inspiration uh for the year ahead. Until next time, keep teaching, keep learning, and keep building the tomorrow your students can believe in because here at Teaching Tomorrow, we believe. Yes, we do.

SPEAKER_05 47:17

Bye bye.

This week, we’re thrilled to sit down with High School Special Education teacher Stephanie Current from Lamphere High School to talk about how E-Sports (organized competitive video gaming) supports a school climate where each and every student grows academically and socially. Listen to this enlightening discussion that connects the dots between video gaming, academic learning, and lifelong skills. More than just another after school club, E-Sports can be a strategy to widen the possibilities of what school can be for all learners.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Good afternoon, good evening, or good morning, wherever you happen to be. This is the Teaching Tomorrow podcast with my main man's 100 grand, Jay Hafner, Oakland Schools Literacy Consultant.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Happy to be here on this very frosty day. It's cold out. Very cold. Good morning here.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

And one of the very best, if not the best, mathematics educational improvement consultants in all the land.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

That's so sweet. Hello, everyone. What you talking about is sweet.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

I speak facts on the teacher tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Katie Morrison, math consultant, Oakland School. So excited to be here. Another episode dropping in this cold, cold weather.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

And of course, I am but one of your hosts.33 or 33%.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

We got into this last time. We did. We did. We did it. Pick a value and go with it.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

Actually, I actually have another value to pick with you. Somebody who speaks facts. I'm your main man with a hundred grand. I wanted I I ain't got a hundred grand of nothing nowhere. Anywhere. You have to Jay. I wish I did. Let's clear this up. Jay has a hundred grand wisdom.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

That's true. That's true. Huh? Yeah. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Well, in a world full of millionaires, that makes me pretty, pretty far behind in my wisdom. And I'm a pre-I just.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

But you are in the world and you're contributing good. I, uh Dr. Steven Sneed, uh, am glad to just be in your midst, my good brother. And my my sister. That's all.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Yeah, I'll echo that.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

We we have a very special episode to, I mean, we say that every time, but like, but no, for real, though. We really like for real, for real, mean it. Because I'm not sure too many people out there in our listening audience really know about today's topic about esports. And and if you are clicking on this on your favorite podcasting service, you've probably seen the title, something to the effect of what does esports have to do with equity? And I'm like, ooh, say more. And so before we bring on our esteemed guest here to really dive deep into this topic, we just want to have a quick chat amongst ourselves. Like esports at equity. KD, help me out. What what what's going through your mind when you hear that those words put together in the same sentence?

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Yeah, so I am definitely entering this conversation as a little bit clueless, but really curious. Like, I'm gonna be totally honest. I don't know what esports is. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Clueless was a great movie, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Oh, true, true, true. Shout out to Clueless.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

So Clueless isn't bad.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

I am also leaning into my alliteration, like continuing to say that like math means lots of things, and I can also be great at identifying words and rhyming them together. Um but yeah, I think like I'm gonna be honest, I I don't know what esports is, but I can imagine that esports is building up a lot of those like things that we want kids to be doing. So collaboration, critical thinking skills. And then I think at a like even deeper level, any conversation about equity, I think is a conversation worthy of having, one that I'm hoping our listeners are excited about hearing. And I think that for me, when I think about like how can esports support equitable opportunities for students, I really am looking at this is an opportunity to expand who belongs in school. And so I'm gonna bring us back to this, like continuing referencing that first episode where you talked about the belonging button. And the more opportunities that we have for kids to be like hitting that and saying, like, this is the space that I feel like I belong, I'm all for it. So I am so excited to hear more about what esports is so I can have like deeper gained understanding. Um, but tying it to like this greater idea of like how do we create spaces that kids want to belong and where does that fit into our greater conversation around equity? Okay. What about you, Jay?

SPEAKER_02 4:13

That's hard to follow, Jay. I don't know what you're gonna say.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

I'm gonna keep it, I'm gonna keep it short because I'm really excited again to to get to our guests today so we can unpack esports. But uh yeah, I I wanted to sort of go back to our first episode, as Katie just mentioned. I think that's great if you scroll your way down to our first episode with Owen Bandano from Park. That's right. Very first. We talked all about uh belonging and how to create spaces of belonging. And I think we've had a lot of conversations throughout this podcast, but not once have we entered into eSports as a space that opens up avenues of belonging for everybody, but also I think especially there's a lot of students involved that may not really find spaces or niches in a lot of the extracurriculars we're we're offering or in a lot of the uh a lot of the um academic structures that we have in place. And you know, I think it's really important, especially on this day, this very, very cold day. I am was just talking with our guests uh right before airtime. Uh I'm looking forward to going home with my six-year-old and hopping on some Mario Kart and having a conversation about uh a Mario Kart tournament that's coming up at Oakland Schools this weekend.

SPEAKER_03 5:26

And just making Oakland schools?

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah, just making those connections to uh to ways in which we can engage students and all of their interests in ways that are really healthy and productive for them. I can't wait to hear more from our guests about that.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Well, speaking of hearing more, I I'm I'm really interested. I will say it in full disclosure, as a parent, I've had children of mine in my household that eat my food. Um They do that. Yeah, they that's why we don't have a hundred dollars. They do tend to do that, right? Um uh participate in in some esports and and and equity, I think, is a really great tie that I'm really interested in our guests' perspective in. But but Katie, I'm with you. Like any conversation that we can have that expands the space for for kids. And my challenge for you, if you're a classroom teacher, if you're a school leader, if you're even a district leader listening to this episode in particular, is to continue to press and expand in your space what school can be. Because sometimes, like, you know, with the hustle and bustle the school year, we can unfortunately have a very narrow operation and definition of what school is or what classrooms can be. You know, here's your work, turn it in, put your name, date, and hour in the upper right-hand corner, boom, right? And a lot of people can see school as that, but what if school could be a space of something different? Where's where kids are still learning, they're still uh engaging in collaboration, they're still problem solving, but it doesn't look like writing on a piece of paper and turning a thing in. Um, I'm really just intrigued in how we expand in that space. Uh so without further ado, I want to bring in on our esteemed guest. Now, we discovered she has a connection because her mom, who is the best, by the way. So Patricia Zimney, if you are listening to this girl, I still love you, uh, is a former colleague of mine in our former district, Oak Park. Um Shout Out Oak Park. Shout out Oak Park. But for now, we're gonna shout out to Lambphere School District. Uh, particularly Lamphair High School, that is the home to our one and only guest, Ms. Stephanie Current, who is a special education teacher at Lamphere High School, but also wears many different hats. Like, I won't tell you all the things, but you know, you you could travel. She's in higher ed, uh uh she's in family transportation with her own family, picking up grandchildren here and there. We all on her business today. But she's gonna drop some major knowledge on us and our listeners about what esports has to do with equity. So let's first dive into that first word, because some of our audience might not have great familiarity with esports. What exactly is esports?

SPEAKER_04 8:11

Uh well, hi to everyone. Hey. Esports is competitive video gaming. So it is something that you can do that is either with PlayStation, Xbox, Nintendo Switch. Um, all of that is something that you can do and all the different games that you can play. So it's something that a lot of high schools are doing, colleges are doing, and introducing that world of everyone playing those video games that was always getting in trouble. Now get to do it competitively.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

Aaron Powell Wait a minute, hold on. Hold on, hold a four, yellow flag. So all the video games we used to play, and we used to say, like, stop playing that, you know, video games are bad for you, it'll rot your brain out. That that's not the case anymore?

SPEAKER_04 8:52

Not as much anymore. It's now a chance to socialize, get to be with those who relate to who you are, and find a comfort, like find a spot that you want to fit in. So you're getting to do what you were always just hanging out in your bedrooms, hanging out at wherever friends' parties. I know for me, land parties used to be the thing. Now you actually get to compete against students across the state. So we compete against schools across all of Michigan, even up the upper peninsula. We've competed against schools on Mackinac Island, all virtually.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 9:26

We don't even have to leave our high school to go and play. There are some schools that their students can play from home. We are fortunate that we have a space at our high school that our kids get to hang out, goof off, we get to be ourselves as coaches and compete and play in the games.

SPEAKER_02 9:43

My mind is blown right now. Like and and hopefully you uh out there in our listening world are blown too because like like talk to me. Um, I mean, you mentioned land parties. I'm like, okay, we are of a similar generation here going back. Uh how how do we get to this evolution of playing video games is bad to bringing it into the schools? How does that discovery happen?

SPEAKER_04 10:09

So it's something that's kind of coming together to help students find out that they have a spot, they exist. Now you're not feeling so much where you're just in your own world, you're at home. There are others who do this. There's people who relate, there's people who understand, who like to compete, play games with each other. So you're able to get out of that comfort zone and actually connect with individuals. That is huge right now in the community, is because you can have athletes play. You can have students who never done a team sport, never done a club, never done anything, and they show up and you put a controller in their hand, they fit right in.

SPEAKER_03 10:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:45

I've seen kids open up who in class, I've had them, they don't talk, you don't see them engage, they don't engage with teachers, they come to esports, they come after school, and all of a sudden, it's a totally different kid. I've never known this kid before, and it's like, wait a second, this is not who I see all day. Who are you? And it's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Yeah, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Yeah, I wanted to sort of unpack a little bit about what an esports uh tournament might look like or you know, a competitive space for kids. And I think that's what's really interesting in schools. I think teaching and and creating opportunities for competition is really important, but the road for competition is most generally lived in the athletic world. There's other ways to build competition, but that's the most prevalent space we have is you join an athletic team, you learn the value of competition, and you build those competitive skills that you take with you moving forward on a playing field. How do the competitive skills translate and and what does a uh an esports tournament like look like? Uh walk us through the what that experience is at the school level.

SPEAKER_04 11:53

Uh so at the high school level, we actually have two seasons. We have a fall season and a spring season. So we are just getting ready for our spring season. Uh my school, we compete in Mario Kart, Splatoon 3, and Smash. Those are the big three. There is tons of other games that you can play. But as far as that goes, we actually have scheduled game days. You get scheduled to compete against another school. The kids work on teamwork. They actually um we have JV and varsity, so that is an option. We have two different platforms in the state that you can actually sign up for and compete through. Um, there's some that can do solo tournaments. I choose to do the platform right now that has his team. So like Smash is a team of three with bench players. So you always have backup. So they're working on who's going to be the ones to play. So that is something that we strive to is to really push them to be like, all right, you guys decide who are my three.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:44

You go against each other, who's up, who's ready, who has practiced, you get the slot. But they do fight for, in a sense, of competition to have that varsity slot because I can only have a team. So that is something that exists now, and kids can in districts earn varsity letters.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Yeah. Yeah. And I imagine they're pretty competitive with the other teams, one another. Talk through like the juice, man, the vibe that flows through when you're at these tournaments that these kids are sort of immersed in what's the case.

SPEAKER_04 13:10

Um, when you go to live tournaments, the kids are all over the place. It's super crazy. I know I'm looking forward to tomorrow just to see what's going to happen. We compete from our high school, so we actually talk through a chat in how you communicate and can do videos. But when you're going through a live event, it is just hustle and bustle. You're seeing these games play, you're seeing these kids move around, they're competing, they're moving through the bracket system just like you would see with basketball, just like you would see with any other sport, you know, winners bracket, losers brackets, going for the trophies, going for the medals. You know, there are some tournaments that have belts that these kids can win. So they're going through all of this and either as a team or as an individual.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

Yeah. Yeah. So I know we're still like fairly in sort of the nascent newer stages of esports, generally speaking. Um, I found a statistic, uh, not not necessarily sure if you know how accurate it is, but you know, it's a study that says that there are over 240,000 kids across the country that are engaged in in esports. Uh are you the did you bring esports into Lampphere?

SPEAKER_04 14:12

How did you come to like so five years ago I joined Lamphere and my administrator decided they wanted esports, kind of put it out there. Who wants to coach? And I've coached other different sports, different activities, and I was like, why not? Let's give it a go. And that's kind of what came to light is after coaching, because I've coached volleyball, I've coached robotics. You know, I've been in different avenues. It was like video games. I like video games. Why not? And I've been so fortunate that my district has helped put together. We actually have a room that's dedicated for esports. That is, we got our TVs, we have our Nintendos, you know, anything basically these kids have wanted. They have been more than happy to make sure that they can do it so they don't have to be from home. And that's how it started is basically I believe they went to a conference, it started. And here you go.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I think I want to make another shout out to Lamphier because that takes an investment in order to say that we don't just want to offer esports to our students, but we're gonna design our school space because again, we gotta bring the kids into the space if we want them to be doing all of those academic things. Um, and if esports is the thing that's creating the collaboration in the community, we don't want it to be away at home. We want it to be inside of the space. So I just echo, I know you've said Lamphier, but I just want to shout out that they invested not just in creating that opportunity, but physically creating a space inside of the school and designing a school with that in mind.

SPEAKER_04 15:49

And there is a lot of schools throughout the state because Michigan is one of the largest states that does have teams uh who have uh places in their building. Yeah. There are some who have to move, but there are quite a few who are able to provide a space, which is amazing that that's happening. And then a lot of students are now getting to go play and get scholarships for colleges and universities. So that is something else that's huge. And Michigan has, I believe, one of the highest rates of universities with esports teams. Wow. So kids have been able to go to conferences for us, they've been able to do all that to learn about leadership, learn about how to manage even how you play, because you hear a lot of kids too with that rage playing. We've learned and we work on that too. So they know, you know, it's one of those they hear or see Mrs. Current, give a look, they're like, hold on, we know we're not doing what we're supposed to. Because I have high expectations for them because I'm also coming from a coaching background.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

What is what is rage? Is rage so rage playing? Is that when like I used to like throw my remote across like Mario? I would, you know, Mario would go down a hole and then I throw my remote. You didn't do that, did you? Yeah. Yeah, man. I lost some Tecmo Super Bowl games, and then there goes there goes the paddle man across. Zinj. Gone. Pre-Zinj. I know I can get competitive. Give me, come on.

SPEAKER_04 17:04

All right, I was gonna say that is something that's very common that's discussed for kids to be able to play in a positive environment, but also in a safe space. Yeah. Because you also get that where we do have to watch to make sure they're not intentionally um doing things in the game to taunt. So taunting is another huge thing that is self-control and right.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 17:25

So we focus on all of that and the working together and the teamwork and all of that is huge to break what a lot of people know that you've always seen where you see those people get super worked up and super we try not to have that because we want that safe space. We want to have fun. Like my colleague and I who are in that room with those kids, we have just as much fun, and on down days we'll sit there and play Mario Kart with them. Because why not?

SPEAKER_02 17:47

Stephanie, I I first of all, thank you for your work. Thank you. Right. And and you know what, pause. We and I think we do, we try, but we as a society don't say thank you enough to teachers. First of all, we can't say it enough, but we don't say it enough. So just while you're here, thank you so much for your work and dedication to the kids.

SPEAKER_04 18:09

Oh, I love it. Um absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

I can kind of tell. I think I can kind of get that vibe. Passion's coming out. It's here.

SPEAKER_04 18:16

I love working with my kids. Like that is my thing, and knowing who they are and knowing their personality. I strive on being able to know my students.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

Well, yeah, yeah. So let's go deeper into that in the knowing. Because what I'm curious about, so so thinking about a person, uh teacher, parent, you know, school administrator, whomever, that is not well versed in the video game world and might have a perception of, oh, this is a place that kids go to waste time or video games are very violent, or I hear a lot of like negative talk or inappropriate talk when they're chatting online. I don't really get that vibe that this is happening in the esports. Help me understand or help us understand what are some of the skills or competencies that you feel kids are working on through the avenue of esports.

SPEAKER_04 19:07

So some of the stuff, and actually this season, we have some new players that are coming on from our ninth graders. And I actually pair up or have my veteran players work with them before we do. They're the ones who are actually working with how to set up the game, how to get in what they're doing, because we have some who show up who've never played before. So we let them actually, so now they're working on leadership. They're taking ownership for their team, they're taking ownership for who's going to be playing, who's gonna be on what team. You know, I had one come up and they were like, no, I want them to play with us because they meshed really well. So we rely heavily on that for our students, and I like to let them take the lead. They know I have expectations, they know I have rules and guidelines, and they know I can hear if they say something they're not supposed to, I call them out, you know, because it's not allowed in our room. Taunting is not allowed. Any of that is off the table because you can actually in the esports world get forfeit of your game. So if you're caught doing that too often, penalty box, right? Well, you could actually lose your game because you're only allowed in the league that we're in two forfeits a season. So if all of a sudden you got one of those because you got in trouble, you're out of game.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

So that is something that's like real-time accountability built into that system. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 20:16

You know, and then coaches are accountable because we watch the chats, we watch all of that in communication. There are some teams who stream. So you can actually, as a parent, go on and watch your students play from home because it sometimes it is hard to come up to the school to see it because of how the setups are, and you can see how the interactions are because you can also see what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

So so help me now now I'm hearing the things at the table and and I and I think I'm making the connections to equity, but but bring that home for for the audience. What what's that explicit connection between esports and equity? Where do you see those two things tying in tightly together?

SPEAKER_04 20:55

So for me, it's the inclusion. I'm including students who normally would not have been on a team, who would not have been in an activity, uh, who would not have gone like go to tryouts for say basketball or an activity. I get a lot of students who, yes, do activities, do sports, but I get those individuals who don't feel like they have a spot and all of a sudden they have someplace they can be themselves. They get to be their goofy selves, they get to be all nerdy, you know, like because we get into all those conversations, all different stuff. You know, we talk about Pokemon, we talk about the magic, you know, we talk about Lorcana, all these different games that are going on that are not video games. And they see teachers and coaches doing the same thing. So that right there to me is where equity c equity kind of cuts in because it's that inclusion. You've now opened up a whole table for a group that didn't have somewhere to go.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

That's the phrase for the episode, right there. You've opened up a whole table. We gotta quote that somewhere in the promotion for the for this episode. Uh, because for me, I think about like again, I might push. To teachers and school leaders is to expand the beyond of what we think school is and what it could be. I mean, of course, basketball and football are gonna predominate a lot of what's in the the sports uh ecosphere, depending upon how you're cut, maybe even hockey or or soccer, football, uh or non-American football, however whatever we're calling that in 2026. Um, but a lot of that's taken out the energy. But here's a space, I love how you said that. Like, yeah, here's a space that widens that that that that table of who gets to be at this table of I'm on a team, I have pride in my work. Um tell me about the range of student emotions as they're progressing through their journey in esports. What is that progression of how they feel about like themselves when they're in esports?

SPEAKER_04 22:54

I have seen students come out of their shells. Wow. You know, that is the biggest thing right there is they come in, they're quiet, they leave typically by their senior year. They're now my leaders. They're my ones who are teaching, who are training and helping others, but they're now talking, they're now laughing, they're loud. I have a few who get very loud. And I love it. But when competitions happen, they're talking to each other. You know, that's a huge growth right there. A lot of them will come in, they'll compete, say Mario Kart. And it's a team of four, and we encourage talking. We want them to communicate who's ahead, who's not, what, where are you at? What are you sending? And they'll start where they're super quiet. And then all of a sudden, by the time we're hitting the end of the season or the end of the you know, second season, that's all you hear is them talking. You hear them loud, you hear them back and forth. And next thing you know, they're winning more matches because they're talking.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Yeah, I'm really interested in like what you're seeing as some of those transferable skills. Like I've heard you talk a lot about like how you see how it transpires in the club, but I'm wondering how you see them opening up, the teamwork, the leadership they're exhibiting, how that's translating back into like the academic classrooms. And if you can talk a little bit about what you've seen happen with students in that space.

SPEAKER_04 24:09

So when I see them out in the halls, I now see them actually in groups. I have a couple students who are super quiet in class who now have seen a couple people they know from esports in their room, they go and talk. They're no longer just sitting by themselves. They're no longer just a loner. They now are, oh, well, we do stuff. I can talk to you. Or I go and see that, or I'm starting to see they talk to their teacher more. So there's a few more, even that, because sometimes you don't they don't want to talk to teachers. So now they're starting to do that more and open up, or they're now joining other activities. So we also partner. A lot of our kids are in marching band in the fall and compete in esports and it works with the coaches. I have a lot now who are in robotics and come to us first, then go to that. You know, we have some who will come mid-season from wrestling.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 24:57

All those different stuff. And the fact that they can join mid-season, but you see them in their classes now interacting with those, you would never have seen before. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Yeah, I I think that's something that's really interesting. I saw a documentary, it was uh within the last year, one of those HBO sports documentaries that was doing a deep dive, uh 60 minute style into esports. And I think that was really interesting was it broke down these like breakfast club mentalities, like the athletes hang with the athletes, and you know, and like the breakfast club, right? They where it brings people together and it really focused on how there was like a star quarterback that also was on the esports team. There was a student who did not feel any sense of belonging that uh I think that was a uh uh was was an amputee and couldn't pr you know participate in athlete. They all came together on this esports team and they were walking around as as friends and and equals within the school. And I think that's something that is really important and it's an important message to deliver is we're creating other spaces for all types of students across the spectrum to feel as if they can be a part of a team and see themselves together. My question for you is I'm I'm curious as to how, in order to drive this, you know, this this view that we're trying to get everybody to sort of feel the sense of belonging, at what how much are the parents playing a role in this? And I'm wondering how you might like communicate with parents who might feel a little, well, you know, a lot of screen time in video games versus like parents who might be, I think this is great, I they're passionate about it, and I want them to be a part of this. How do you find the parents are res receptive and responsive to esports?

SPEAKER_04 26:44

I have been very, very fortunate to have a amazing parent support. So we've had parents actually provide snacks and drinks and come up and all that stuff for our kids. Yeah. We've had parents come up to us because, you know, and I'll use one example. I had a student who graduated last year. This was his first ever structured activity in sport where he got to do something his siblings have always done. So the support I get from parents is amazing. Yes, I don't hear from every single parent. Sure. That's normal. But when I am, they're getting our weekly emails. They know the schedule. They're reaching out to me to keep me updated if something's going on, or like, hey, are you guys meeting? If not, so-and-so can't meet right now. They keep me posted. So I feel very fortunate that I've been able to get to the parent connection and have such a good like rapport. And most of them, if they're asking about the screen time, we explain it's that structure. We're not just letting them do whatever. They don't get to come in here and play whatever they want. They're coming in here to practice. They're coming here to play a specific game, work together, and then that's it. Now what they do, you know, for games, a lot of them go home and play. But we tell them and let them know that there's structure, there's practice, there's consistency, and we're not just getting to do whatever they want to do.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

So, Stephanie, throughout your your chat with us here at the table, um I've heard like so many benefits for for kids. I've heard they're working to be better leaders. I've heard that they're working to improve their own emotional regulation in terms of how they deal with defeat. Uh, they're working on cooperation. Uh and I'm certain to a degree they're working on strategy and and problem solving. So I hear so many benefits for kids. I want to hard switch gears now and talk about the benefits for the adults for you. And and I want to say that in the context of um, you know, I'm just gonna name the thing. Uh a lot of people, a lot of adults find that in today's climate, teaching is very hard. And teaching is is very hard. It's a challenging uh place. And there are some teachers that can feel very disillusioned about their time in the classroom and in time in schools and and and get in a little bit of a funk here about like where we are as a profession. What is participation and leading this do for you? What does this do for your your teacher's soul? Because because I hear, I hear the energy and the passion. What is this doing for you?

SPEAKER_04 29:12

I love it. The for me, getting to watch my students go from ninth grade to 12th grade is my favorite thing. I get them when they're super quiet. And this is something because as a special educator, I hold IEPs and everything. By the time they're a senior, I now have conversations. I know life plans, I know who they are, I know what they're doing. We can just talk as if we're friends. Even though they know I'm their teacher, we have conversations like if we were just to go have coffee. And they're coming to me, they're talking to me about what's going on, letting me know we're talking about plans. You know, to me, that is where the joy is getting to know my students. You know, once you are in my classroom, you become one of my kids. They all know I call them kiddos. They're my kids. That's just who they are. And I love it. I wouldn't trade a thing. I know I'm a high school teacher through and through because of that, because I also can be myself and show my personality. Like they all know I'm a Disney adult. They all know. They know how to get me on a tangent. There's some days I let them, and I'm okay with that. That's okay. But I can bring it in.

SPEAKER_02 30:12

Do you do you bust out in Disney tunes?

SPEAKER_04 30:14

Oh, I can if I want.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

I have all the yeah, I got I gotta go to hard classroom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it.

SPEAKER_04 30:19

The kids all know, same with that. You know, they're already asking if I'm for Spirit Week dressing up as one of my Disney characters or costumes and all that stuff. So but that's what I enjoy is they know who I am and they have a piece of who I am with them as well. So then now as they go on, they're still growing. I still hear from some. Makes my day. I know a lot of my colleagues who do, especially in our department. We're very fortunate. A lot of kids come back and connect with us or ask questions or reach out. So we still get to hear what they're doing or we run into them.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

That is amazing. I we got one more question for you uh before we transition to our hot topic. So I'm a teacher, school leader, maybe a parent listening to this episode. Man, it sounds really cool. How do I get started?

SPEAKER_04 31:02

A lot of times in most districts, so like for us, the students will see stuff posted. They can go to their athletic directors, they can go to their school and find out what's going on. Just about every school in the state has a team that can be looked up or found and then connected. But a lot are now going through the athletic directors and getting posted and shared, or going through social media and looking up the school's team. You know, we even we are on Instagram and different stuff, and you can go pull up and see what's going on. That is one of the biggest things is just listen to your school announcements, see the postings, and know what's available.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

Get started. You heard it here first here, but I gotta, I'm gonna start off, I'm gonna kick off our hot topic. Go uh here. Uh and for our listening audience, hopefully you're real familiar with this is the time where each of us is gonna take really quick what what's a hot, spicy take on today's take. And I love this uh uh angle of inclusion and equity. So my hot take is we got to stop talking about equity. We got to start doing the things. Because I'm tired of the talk sometimes. I'm like, okay, the think piece, you know, the the thing, like, yeah, uh-huh. You had me at hello. What can I do? Yeah. Do an esports team. Yeah. You you want to you really want to be about equity? Like, you know, again, come come to workshops at Oaks and Schools. Join our test. We we would love to have you, but don't just let it stop at the learning, like for the adults. Go and go do something different that you weren't doing before. I think every school should have uh an esports team. So if you if you listening are about that diversity, equity, and inclusion, stop talking about it and start doing it. Equity and esports is one way, of many ways that you could do it. So that's my hot take.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

Jay, what about you? I'm uh just to build off that, if we're going to uh how cool would it be if every one of our schools or districts had an esports team in the next two to three you know years, if we really built this up. But in order to do that, it takes funding and it takes resources that we need to invest in. And so Jay, you said you didn't have a million dollars. No, I don't, but you did say that. No, but our guest also did shout out Disney. And if Disney wants to drop in a sponsorship here, I am I'm happy to be happy to become the man with a hundred grand if Disney's gonna help fund our esports across the uh across the county. So yeah, maybe there might my hot tech just evolved into Disney spots. Disney esports bring esports across Michigan. But uh yeah, no, I really would like if we value, you know, collaboration and problem solving, communication, um, competition, and all of the good things that come from putting students in in spaces where they're competing with one another, um, then I think we have to really look at like multifaceted diverse ways in which we can fund esports. I do know that some of esports is funded through athletic departments and athletic directors are doing a lot of work across the country and here in Michigan to bring esports in. I think if we partnered with outside resources and technological companies, there's a lot of different areas within STEM and robotics that we can bring together all sorts of resources to reach our goal of making sure that everybody who wants an esports team in Oakland County in the next two to three years, I think there's probably resources out there to make it happen if we just raise people's awareness about what this is. And hopefully this episode is doing that. If you're listening to this and esports was just either not on your radar or now it's like you've heard something about it, let's raise our awareness about the opportunities it can provide for all students to get in a competitive space uh with one another.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Yeah, I mean, I started this episode saying, like, I really feel like I'm kind of clueless, but really curious about where this conversation is going to lead us. And I think the more I heard from you, Stephanie, the more questions and considerations, you know, Stephen and Jay, that you uplifted, it really has me thinking that esports isn't about video games. It's about schools that were ready to create structures and belonging for students based on what they were interested in. But it also is about providing kids an opportunity to shine who don't usually get to, right? We elevate ideas of like the star athlete and the A plus student. And like this gives kids an opportunity and a place to shine that they might not have come to school always feeling. Um, and so I don't know what my hot take connected to yes, esports all make sure we can fund it, but it's really so much more than video games. Um and so I guess my hot take is really pushing teachers, right? Bringing it back to them is saying, how can you create within what is in your control an opportunity for students who don't shine in your classroom to be able to shine? What is something? Is it through your assessment practices, your grading practices, the thing, the homework that you give? How can you find a student who isn't shining and make that possible for them?

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Wow. We're gonna leave our last hot take to our esteemed guest again, once again, uh Stephanie Current, special education teacher at Lamphere High School. Madam, what say you? What's your hot take?

SPEAKER_04 36:30

My biggest thing is just try it. Just try something new. Yes, try a new activity. Like we get students for esports who have no clue. Yeah. I'm happy if they show up for one season because now they just stepped out of their comfort and did something they would not have done before.

SPEAKER_03 36:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

Wow. Yes. And on that, doing something we've never done before. Well, we we do this every time. We end our show uh with Brother Jay. Brother Jay, take us out.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

Yes, all right. Well, thank you. That's a uh that's gonna be a wrap for today. I know I'm looking forward on this Friday to going home and uh firing up some Mario Kart with my kids. I think it's gonna be a little extra special tonight. I'm gonna have a little different context as we uh as as we play uh on the couch. Huge, huge thank you and shout out to Stephanie Current for the work that you're doing and thank you for joining us today. Uh and all of you for spending this time with us. We hope you found something here to inspire your own practice, spark new ideas for your classroom or school community. And if this episode did that, please start this conversation in your uh school communities. We hope you'll join us next time as we continue to elevate topics and voices that matter to you. In the meantime, don't forget to follow or subscribe to Teaching Tomorrow. Smash the like ever you get your podcast. Leave us a rating or comment. It helps other educators find these conversations. And if you liked what you heard, share this episode with a colleague who could use a little inspiration in the year ahead. Until next time, keep teaching, keep learning, and keep building the tomorrow your students can believe in because here at Teaching Tomorrow, we believe in you and esports. And esports. All right. Bye bye.

For this week’s episode, our hosts sit down with Hadeel Azzo, ELD, Math & ELA Curriculum Coordinator for the West Bloomfield School District. Hadeel explains how teachers and school leaders can implement strategies and approaches to supporting the learning needs of Muli-lingual learners, and their journey to acquire proficiency in English. From creating welcoming classroom environments to scaffolding linguistic supports, Hadeel shares practical, evidence-based strategies - including the right adult mindset - that any person working in schools can implement tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening. Wherever you happen to be listening to this, the one and the only. Although if you are searching Teaching Tomorrow, yes, you might find other podcasts, but this is the only Teaching Tomorrow podcast with Jay, Katie, and Steven. I am but one of your hosts. Katie, we always say stick with the numbers. So I'm.333333% of our hosts. I'm Dr. Stephen Sneed. I'll let my hosts introduce themselves.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

Hi everybody. Jay Hafner, Oakland Schools Literacy Consultant. Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_04 0:45

Yeah, Katie Morrison, math consultant with Oakland Schools, happy to be here as well.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

And today is pretty special. I keep saying that like every episode is that. I mean, every episode is special. We're all special. It's like your children, right? All of them. Katie's laughing because we we all have multiple children.

SPEAKER_04 1:03

Well, I'm actually wondering where you're going with this. All of our children are special. Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:07

I mean, there might be one that, okay, we're gonna, you know, like play at the park and they really like the thing that we like to do, and the other one's like, but like all of them are special. So all of our episodes here at the Teaching Tomorrow Podcast are special. This one's pretty unique, though, because we're gonna be talking about gifted and talented education. What is gifted and talented education? And I'm not so certain that the public has uh even we professionals have like quite an accurate gasp, uh grasp of what that might be. Yeah. So we're gonna talk about it today with a very special guest we'll bring in in just a minute. But as of course, we'll engage in our typical banter of, and I'll tell us to you, Katie. W in your head, what is gifted and talented education? How do you make that thing work? Like within an MTSS model, right? That's all the rave now. I guess the other end of the triangle? I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. Oh, our guest is nodding her head. So I think you I think you you pinpointed it for us, Stephen. Yeah, there are a couple things I was thinking about in preparation for this. So the first one, yes, because we're really thinking about this group of students and how they fit into like the bigger system that we have within within our schools. And it feels like so often now, when we talk about MTSS, specifically from the academic side, we're really talking about like intervention for students who aren't meeting the grade level expectations. And it feels like that really monopolizes a lot of the conversation. Um, and so I feel like on, you know, from Oakland school side, we're really supporting districts and teams to think about how to build a tier one system that supports, and then from a school side, we're like, yeah, but we've got all of these kids that are in these, you know, low-performing grade bands, and how do we how do we build them up? So I think that's a part of the conversation for today is how do we expand what our definition and thinking about our MTSS system is not being exclusively from an intervention uh for students who aren't meeting needs standpoint. And then the other thing I think about is when I was a teacher, I never worked in a school or a district that had a specific like gifted program. And so it always, or a teacher or like a different curriculum or a place, right? However you're defining that for where gifted students are supported, it was always on the expectation of the teacher to come up with ways to both differentiate and scaffold down while also providing expansion opportunities up. And that feels so overwhelming as a teacher. I remember like being in a place where you're sitting there saying, Of course I want to do what's best for all of my special children. But I also only have set amounts of time, set amount of like expectations I can get through. So often it feels like I'm going more and more towards the middle. And really thinking about if that's how teachers feel, then it really is our job as leaders, both at the building level and district level, to help provide the supports to ensure that teachers aren't feeling that weight of providing all of the exclusive differentiation, especially when you don't have specific gifted programs or teachers or um set curriculums for those students.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Or even like the support, the knowledge base to be able to design and event systems that do support and engage these students. And you're right, like teachers have all this weight. We put all of this weight on the teachers now. We really have to unthink some of our current existing systems to really think differently about how we might serve kids. Jay, what do you say? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:51

Yeah, I'm I'm curious to talk to our guests today and have you know ask and talk through a lot of different things, some which are system related, I think is an important conversation uh to have, but also like framing it really specifically to the kids and and the child. Like where in what ways are we is the system designed to sort of identify a child as gifted and talented, and what does that mean? And and and what are the repercussions of of that and and making sure that we're serving the needs of the students. So I'm curious about that because I think like over the course of time, there's been an evolving nature to gifted and talented programs and the way in which we provide supports uh to students that are identified as gifted and talented. I think another thing that I'm really fascinated by is there there just seems to be a lot of like there isn't like a uniform understanding within the structure to say that like this is the work we're doing for gifted and talented students across the country for sure. Not even within the state and probably even within the county, from like one area to the next. Uh the systems, I'm not sure. And I want to unpack it a little more to see like in what ways are the systems serving each other, aligned with each other, or in conflict with one another. And so I think like when I was when I was thinking through this, I started with the question of thinking like, okay, so like is this child gifted? But then I'm like, that's a pretty like existential question that's got a lot of nuance to it. So maybe if the question that we're grappling with instead, it's not is this child gifted, but what does this child need? It gets us a little closer to the systems-based conversation around MTSS and the role it plays within. So those are those are just the thoughts I had. And really, like a lot of times when we have a guest, I feel close to the issue itself and in the unpacking and hearing this one, I'm really curious to hear what our guest has to say and feeling like engaged in doing a little learning myself around ways in which uh w we can we can do the best that we can for these kids.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

You know, that today's topic really stretches me. You know, I'm being fully transparent because when I think about system building, you know, obviously uh no matter the date that you're listening to this podcast, we are talking about like PA 146 and literacy and making sure all children and so my default position is trying to help students who aren't yet at proficiency and growth. And so today's conversation is stretching me to really think about okay, yes, and your system also needs to meet the kids who are already there and they're past there. They need something a little different.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Um and and I'm a sucker for public schools, man. I love public schools. Like this this is the only thing I've ever done professionally has been public schools. And I think it's a challenge for us in the public space, a good challenge that we need to embrace is to think about and design uh systems of support for gifted students as opposed to alternative, well, go to the private school down the street. And not that I'm shading private schools, if if people independently to choose to do that is after they choose the best of their family, that that's great. I want a high quality public education for all students. And we really have to sit and really think all means all. And although that's like, oh yeah, that's right. But when you really sit and think of it, ooh, right, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Not just some, not most, or not like a specific one-identified population, but everybody. So, Jay, I'm I'm with you in your curiosity, my good man. Uh, Katie, I believe you are going to introduce. Yes, I am.

SPEAKER_04 8:44

I'm so excited to introduce our wonderful, wonderful guest, Michelle Gearman. So, Michelle comes to us with over 20 years in education from elementary through college. She currently serves as the AI strategist and gifted education coordinator in the Avondale School District, where she co-founded the Gate Magnet School in Avondale. Additionally, she serves as an advocacy chair for the Michigan Association for Gifted Children and is the AI ambassador and AI State steering committee member for Michigan Virtual. So Michelle has a lot of things going for her. And a lot of titles. Yes, and a lot of titles.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

You know, I'm in good company because I'm also very curious. And that's what keeps me seeking opportunities to learn more, and that's where all these extra hats come on. All right. Um but I love that you're curious. That's the best place to be when to talk about something. And so I think since we're start, I heard you starting with curiosity. I'm gonna start with maybe just some misconceptions that can be out there around. Break it down, break it down. Yes. And so um, one of them is when we think gifted children, we think high achieving. A lot of times that's what, like if you just say close your eyes and picture, you know, gifted children learning. Um, that's you picture things like that, like young Sheldon and things like that, where they have this high achieving capacity, and they may have some differences um socially or little things like that, but people don't picture um like two E or twice exceptional students. People don't picture underachieving gifted students, of which there are many, um, because of the fact that we don't have systems in place to engage them specifically. And gifted so twice exceptional going along with that, what does twice exceptional mean? So you are gifted, but you also have dyslexia. There is a correlation. You also have ADHD, there is a correlation. You might be on the ASD spectrum, and there giftedness has a correlation with all of those. Um, and not just twice exceptional, but gifted students in general have something called asynchronous development. And people think of that as, oh, you know, you have a seven-year-old, and they can do ninth grade math, but um socially they behave more like a four-year-old. And so they think of things, but really it can also be that you have skills in one area, one way of thinking, maybe verbal linguistic, but you are underdeveloped in executive functioning or your numeracy or things like that. So um to be gifted can look so many different ways. Yeah. And so, um, and I love that you're talking about, you know, the empathy for teachers too. So step one, as Jay pointed out, would be identification. How do we know what these kids need? We don't have to call them gifted or or anything, but if I notice a student is struggling perhaps with reading um and understanding sound and letter correspondence, you know, we're thinking maybe they maybe they have an issue with dyslexia, maybe they haven't had the right instruction. But what do they need, right? They need for us to to use the science of reading, right? And to up the intensity as much as we need to until it works. And it's the same thing for gifted kids. If they're not engaging in the content, there could be some asynchronous development, there could be some gaps. There could be some ways that um their emotional intensity or their need for autonomy and relevance um is really what they need. And so when you think about things like universal design for learning as a tier one approach, which I know Oakland Schools is amazing. I've been to your universal design uh learning things. And there's a lot you can do with it.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

We didn't even pay her to say that.

SPEAKER_03 12:38

Well done. We can end the episode now. We've got to pay her to say that.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

They did it. Um but really it does work well because if you are embedding right in there a lot of voice and choice and some different differentiated experiences students can have, um, gifted students might need to choose in some subjects something that has more scaffolding. They might need more thin slicing in and in math for something. So um it works for everybody, right? It is universal design for learning, but um that's really the tier one approach. If you are identifying some students and you're saying, okay, their their needs aren't being met, I'm not sure why. And now that I've heard of this thing, this gifted, what is that? What does it look like? And I can definitely share some resources for any listeners that would like them. Um there's some free modules online that are free to to anyone on edupaths because we don't have mandates or funding in Michigan. We haven't since um around 2009. It's been a while. So it's it's not we don't we don't have like a lot of conversation around these things. And so it's like, okay, well, where are the resources? I'd love to identify these kids. I'd love to get some professional development around that. But because there is no mandate and there is no funding, um, whereas when it comes to the science of reading and dyslexia, there is there are mandates or if there's funding, um, it's harder to come by those resources. And so, you know, I want to frame today around some very low prep, um getting started things like identification and resources. And then if you do, if you're at a place as a listener where you're you have good tier one, you have an understanding of what gifted students might look like when they're not engaging or they're asking more questions than they are answering them. Um, high achieving students, their hands always up, they've got all the answers. You can have high achieving gifted students, or you might have a gifted student who asks a lot of questions, doesn't produce a lot of work, even though verbally it sounds like they could. You know, what's going on there? Um and also gifted students come from all different backgrounds. When you when you do have some sort of universal testing in place, um, you are reaching so many more of your underserved populations, and people sometimes forget to see how many underserved populations fall into that gifted category and what serving them can do for their for their life in so many ways.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Well, Michelle, let me let me ask you this this question because we like to we we hope we have a bifurcated audience here teaching tomorrow or classroom teachers like what can you do tomorrow? But then also like school leaders, like like what how can I think about my school and supporting my kiddos? So talk to the the building leader or the district leader who's listening to this right now. What might be some things that they could do at a broader school-wide and or district wide level to really get into uh identifying and supporting students who are gifted. What could our leaders do?

SPEAKER_00 15:40

I think being curious would be the the first basic thing and saying, I want to know more about what gifted students might look like or need so that then they can find those resources. And we live in a world where it's not super difficult to find resources, but making sure those resources are high-quality resources that do talk about the many portraits of gifted learners because there are many. Um and if that leader, you know, is curious about that and learns about that and finds resources to share to just bring that shared understanding and how can we make space for that? I'll be honest. When we think about equity, when you start to make space for this understanding of portraits of gifted learners, that time, that energy, it's not gonna come from that extra time and energy you had laying around because that doesn't exist. You're gonna have to say to yourself, why is this important in our district right now? And how much time can I carve out from somewhere else? When is it a good time to do that? Yeah, when is an appropriate time to be okay to do that? Um, and everyone's in a different place with whether they have time, capacity, you know, and readiness to do that. But being curious, you can start now. And when you have that spare time to find out things on your own to start to share, you also might want to pull your community. Who in your community already knows some things? I bet you have some parents of gifted students who just are very curious about how to serve their child and advocate for their child. So you'd be surprised, even in our 28 districts in Oakland County, how many parents of gifted children there are that I've spoken to who have a lot of knowledge around because they were trying to figure out what portrait of a gifted student does my baby belong to and what do they need. So draw on that capacity that you already have. That's another way to be curious. Um, so those would be some good first first steps.

SPEAKER_04 17:37

Yeah, I think one of the things we love to do is talk about best practices. And I love that you dove right into telling us about what's something the teacher can do. And Stephen brought us in to think about leaders. I wonder if we could like step back a little bit because I think there's a couple things that you've elicited in the conversation that I think are worthy of like greater exploration. So the first is that the state of Michigan, based on what you said, doesn't currently provide additional money or resources for specific gifted education programming. Is that correct? That is very sadly correct. And so I am hoping you might be able to shed some light on Avondale's story, right? We said in your introduction that you helped co-found the Gate Magnet program at Avondale. And we love highlighting and elevating sharing stories and want to make sure that Avondale gets all the credit and um shoutouts that it deserves. So I wonder if you could, as much as you are willing to share with us, like what is Avondale's story and journey in in creating this kind of programming and space in your district?

SPEAKER_00 18:40

So yeah, I would love to tell Avondale's story. Um so it's shout out to Avondale. Thank you. Um so Avondale started really with this particular journey based on some parents who came to the board and said, are you willing to look into serving gifted students and kind of bringing up some of the misconceptions right away and some of the things that they felt their children needed? Um and one thing I love about Avondale is I have to say Avondale is a district that doesn't mind being unique, doesn't mind trying new things, and it's small enough and family enough that those lines of communication are tight enough that you can kind of make change in a at a reasonable pace. And so they said yes. And so I'll try to include the most important parts on the timeline because I could go into a whole fireside chat for like an hour and I won't do that.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Well, we'll bring you in for like a part two.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

Season two, part two.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Um but so then the work began and they started saying, okay, and so they found myself and Kate Martin, and um we began the work and began design and Kate had a background in uh North Carolina with gifted education. I had a background um in all of my education. I have a gifted son, and so I had just always been passionate about that. So even though Michigan didn't have things in place when I was implementing things, um, that's where my curiosity started from. And so we had kind of a an interesting mix of skills ourselves, and we dove right into best practices and gifted education and um what are some different curriculums like we liked Jacob's Latter and William William and Mary. We talked about curriculum compacting, which is kind of a tier two thing. We talked about pre and post assessments to really understand, meet kids where they are. Um, and so just really got into a lot of discussion over like a whole summer. Um, and when we and then we had to start with the the one of the hardest things is identification. And so we've had a journey through that. We started with we had our NWEA testing and we had these writing samples and some different things that first year. We now and also include the Cogat over the last several years, which is a cognitive abilities test. Um and so that's where it started. And that first year, you know, what that we did our uh screening, we realized we need to change a couple of things about the screening um to make it and so in including the COGAT. Um, and we learned that wow, you know, we are getting many different portraits of gifted learners, and they are some of them are very high verbal linguistically, some of them it's math. They're not globally gifted in every subject. Wow, we have some intense emotions, some asynchronous development, some twice exceptional students with high needs. Um, and we, you know, we expected that, right? Because we were we had background and we we talked about it. But even with that small sampling of population, it just it was obvious this is hard work. It takes time. And we intentionally grew slow from the beginning because we needed to keep adding on systems and adding on multi tiered systems of supports so that we could get to a place um to Expand. And so I will say that I think that was our secret sauce was growing slow enough, being small enough, meeting often enough, and staying really student centered. Um, and you do have to communicate with the families quite a bit because of the uniqueness of um the portraits of gifted students as well. And you have to do that with all students. Um, but these parents are usually ready to advocate. And that is an extra challenge. As a parent of a gifted child, I was ready for it because I know what it feels like to feel like you need to advocate and no one even knows what you're talking about because there's no system and no vocabulary in place and you're talking a foreign language. Um, so that's been one of the most wonderful parts is really listening to families and getting to a place of understanding and really seeing the children and helping each other um from both sides. And um, yeah, so that would be like the start of the journey. And and from there we've just expanded as we could. Um, of course, we've had difficulties like you know, change in leadership, which we're in such an excellent place now, but that's hard. Changing buildings, that's challenging.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Um, changing curriculums, you know. And so all of those things along the way, um, the trajectory is has a little bit up and down as we go towards continuous improvement. Right now we meet weekly as a team for our gifted programming, and um, that's hard to commit to, but without it, we wouldn't be able to do what we do.

SPEAKER_03 23:35

Yeah. I wanna I wanna talk a little bit about coherence across the system that we're talking about in regards to to gifted and talented. And I mentioned this earlier that it feels in and you mentioned it also, this this idea that we don't even have like a really a coherent language, even from like one area to the next in how we talk about or even define gifted and talented, let alone be able to identify and then provide the supports. The one thing that I have heard in this conversation that does bring a little coherence and understanding is the relationship it has with MTSS. MTSS is beginning or or it is in an area where it's a coherent language of understanding. We definitely have different levels of implementation, but I think whether whether you're living in Avondale or Ferndale or Michigan or New York, there is an understanding around MTSS and its inherent understanding of what it's supposed to do. So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about, you know, so I guess it's like a two-part question. Number one, the way in which MTSS specifically plays a role in providing support for gifted and talented students, that's number one. And number two is like from there, what other conversations are you having, if any, with like those in neighboring districts or those in neighboring states? Like, where is that conversation happening to sort of bring just a little more alignment and coherence around what it is we mean when we say gifted and talented?

SPEAKER_00 25:05

That's an excellent question. So for the multi-tiered systems of supports in Avondale, um, for me, this is my third year as the gifted education coordinator. So I'm in all seven buildings, right? We have our magnet school, we're it's all public school. Um our magnet school is a center program. Um, and so the teachers there have had more training with some of those high needs for SEL, emotional intensity, and things like that. Um, but we do also, I am in all the the buildings for tier one. And a lot of what we do is we talk about 3P learning, UDL. Um, I help teachers look at different data to identify students. Um, we piloted using the Naglieri nonverbal assessment in one of our buildings. And um, you know, we you know, what I love about that is um it's nonverbal. It's completely pictorial directions. And so we do have, you know, you have some ELD students and some students who um might be in special ed but also be gifted. And so I was it's really great to have these experiences where teachers have this like paradigm shift or this mind shift of what does it mean to be gifted? Um, how might that present? And so just any time I'm seeing in buildings where we're able to reach more students. So tier one is really that we are trying to increase the culture of understanding around what giftedness might look like. And um, sometimes it's your students who are high energy and uh I'll just be honest, a behavior problem. Um, and they're bored and they refuse to engage. I mean, they're saying I already know this, but they refuse to even show you because for them, doing something that feels irrelevant feels unfair and they have this strong sense of justice. And so the inclination is to be like, well, they must not know it, or and sometimes they don't. I won't say gifted students don't sometimes say this is too easy because they're the fear of that identity complex and they actually don't know. That happens too. So many things happen. But um, but just building this understanding. And what I love about it is, you know, like at Avondale High School, the teachers there, if they see a student that you know, their their papers are all a mess, they don't turn things in on time, and it does they're not gonna say, well, how could they be gifted? Because they know asynchronous development, lack of executive functioning, that could be a sign of giftedness. But I'm hearing things they say and I'm seeing some data that really doesn't match up with their performance. So what does this student need? Or what am I even, what is learning and what am I assessing in the first place? Like, why is there a mismatch in general, right? And so, because um, we know we gifted students really do, um, just to be a little, you know, in the field for a minute, they really do have this need for purpose and they want to learn and they're curious, and they have these intense emotions and existential crises about is life worth anything? Does anything even matter? Is this all a joke? What is school? Why am I here? And so um, when you can channel that and really get to understand them and make school relevant for them, um, it can be a beautiful thing and it it really is kind of contagious. Like I love working with students, you know, in all of the buildings. And sometimes it's not, it's the buildings that aren't a center program that can be the most rewarding because families who had no idea their child was gifted are finding that out. Um, students who are behind in reading um are being recognized because we're seeing, oh, you're you have some of these gifted tendencies. And so um there's other ways for that to show up. And when students have these ways of demonstrating who they are and being themselves, they they do, and they're they might be in intervention and gifted supports. It can happen, you know, and so just seeing children for who they are and seeing what they need, what whoever they are, is tier one. And then just universal design for learning um is also part of that. And when you're doing projects um at any level, you know, high school, middle school, elementary level, there's a chance for everyone to see themselves in that solution. What is that problem you're working on? Um, I can see myself in that solution. I don't have to be someone who goes to college to see myself in that, and not all gifted students want to go to college or need to, right? And so, like just providing those opportunities for everybody to feel a sense of belonging and be seen and have the learning be relevant to them. So, kind of breaking out of some of the linear models can really help you to be able to do that. And so being flexible, that that's the tier one. And so then tier two, of course, is gonna be getting into pre and post assessments, maybe some curriculum compacting. That is a lot of work if you haven't had um professional development in that area. It's not something you can just say, I'll do that tomorrow. Um, it's hard and it takes time and carving out space for that is hard. Tier two, it's hard to go to the tier two level because then tier three might be an actual grade acceleration, where maybe you have your two, three hallway, second and third grade hallway, um teaching second, third, and fourth grade math or or more or beyond. It takes a lot of teaming. So to go beyond the tier one, it's really about being a team, collaboration and unity with your team.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

But let me ask you this question. I know we're running out of time here. Uh just to be clear, like Avondale Gate is a school. Like you have a separate school, so it's not like a program, it is a school.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

It's a school, it's its own building, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

It's its own building. What made you all decide to go that route as opposed to like a program in schools or like here's some extra things for teachers to do? Like, what was that like you're at the crossover points, like, ooh, we need to do something really different here with a with an entirely separate school? How did that decision play out?

SPEAKER_00 30:48

I think it was listening to our community that had already been in schools that were trying to do that, and we already were a district that did talk about differentiation. We already had quite a wide variety of learning abilities. Um and so we started our first year in Woodland. So we were just two classrooms in Woodland. We had 30 kids our first year. Now we have over 400 just for the gate magnet program.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Wait a minute, hold up, pause. You have how many kids?

SPEAKER_00 31:13

We'll have over 400 next year.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

400 next year.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

From a staff of two, just me and Kate doing the curriculum design, the everything to now a staff of like 30, over 30. So it's that's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 31:24

Yeah. How long did it take you to grow that?

SPEAKER_00 31:27

So from 2017 until now. Wow. Yeah. And and that might sound fast, but I feel like we, you know, we could have gone faster based on the needs and the people who wanted to be a part of the program, but um, you know, we tried to go as slow as we possibly could. But the people who initially came to us um asking for this and came to the board asking for this, and the things they were talking about really did lend itself to a cohort of students that would get highly specialized instruction. Um, and students that really needed, you know, we had even in that first couple of years students that were many grade levels ahead. Um, and so we were like, okay, we do want to be able to um talk about the UDL principles. And it was called something a little bit different back then, but we wanted to be able to talk about how to meet these kids' needs and do some pre and post assessments. And that culture started everywhere and started to spread, especially at Woodland where we were housed. Um and Woodland tradition, you know, was doing a lot of the things that we were doing with the tier one as far as differentiation and pre and post test and things like that. So we teamed with them. Um and then with the kids who are actually a part of those classrooms, a lot of them did have some higher needs and did really have more um and so for them, we really do believe in homogenous grouping being an important part of a gifted student's day, meaning they are able to learn alongside peers at the same level and challenge each other and motivate each other. But there's also some time um for mixed grouping as well. Um and right now when I work with students, it's uh it's push-in where I co-teach with teachers in the classroom. It's pull out where I have cohorts in different in all the different buildings, and then they bring their learning into the classroom and it spreads. And when kids are presenting learning and other kids say, I want to do that, can I do that? Yes, you can. It's for everyone. You like, like you want to read that challenging book? Absolutely. Let's support you so that you're able to do that. So I think it's important to note you don't have to isolate these kids. You want to be able to have some of that homogenous grouping and those that cohorting time for them. Um, but you also want to have some time for them to be a part of the whole world and and have as much social experience as possible. So that's important too.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Well, speaking of time, man, we definitely need to bring her back backhand for our part two. I feel like we've barely scratched the surface. Yeah. But what's such a rich conversation? We're gonna transition to our hot topic time where we're just gonna throw out a little or a a hot, hot take, hot takes rather, uh on this. Uh I'll kind of go first, but really quickly. Budget. If you are a school leader, yeah, you need to really be thinking about this is a population of kids that probably is underserved in your space. And as leaders, uh and even for my teachers who are aspiring leaders as well. Uh how do we put our money where our mouth is? So if this is really important, if we really want to support this, you know, obviously there's larger conversations at the state, but even within your cool community, how can we allocate resources in such a way that support the this these these group of kids? That's my hot take. Jay, what about you? What you want to do?

SPEAKER_03 34:38

Yeah, I mean, I was struck by, you know, the uh this the uh the fact that you brought to the table that Michigan hasn't funded gifted and talented education since, what was it, 2009? Since 2009, and that gets me thinking like when there is a lack of funding, there tends to be a lack of urgency around creating systems of support around it. So as Steven said, let's put our money where our mouth is. I'm thinking we need to put our money where our systems aren't and and figure out a way to create systems and lean in MTSS in a way that maybe takes the triangle and makes it more of a diamond that becomes a little more inclusive of the needs of gifted and talented students. The other thing I was struck by, and I think it's important to mention here really quickly, is you mentioned on a number of occasions parents advocating on behalf of their students to boards. You yourself have had to advocate on behalf of your own son. And while we definitely encourage all the parent advocacy, if parent advocacy is the thing that's driving impact in a district, that's an equitability issue. That means we don't have the systems there to service the students. If it takes parents at board meetings to advocate for groups and subsets of students, we are failing them on an equitability basis. And so, yeah, that's that's my hot take. Let's put our money where our systems aren't and really take a really close hard look at ways in which we can turn the triangle into a more of a diamond support within MTSS.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

Because you know what they say about diamonds. Diamonds are forever. Hopefully that didn't violate copyright. Katie, oh, it did.

SPEAKER_04 36:18

Oh, I was I thought you were gonna say something about a shape that was really hard to break, but no. Okay. Um so yes, y'all go deep today, right? So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um yeah, I was thinking, you know, there's something that Michelle said, building off of what Jay said, um, about like really thinking about your system and saying I'm gonna have to carve out yes money, yes, resources, think about my system, but also like the time and the energy, right? To really think about like if I give my time and energy to this, it means inevitably I'm going to have to take away from somewhere else. And so my hot take is like thinking about like a meeting structure that already exists, right? So when we have our weekly or bi-weekly or monthly MTS meetings where we're looking at data and we're looking at students, and we typically ask questions about what students aren't. I'm going to push everyone to ask a second question that has them really thinking about well, what students are ready to go further? And what are we specifically doing to support those students who have shown us and proven to us that they're ready to go beyond what we're doing?

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Go ahead, Katie. Well, as always, we leave our last hot take to our esteemed guests. You take us out. What's your hot take?

SPEAKER_00 37:39

Well, you three all had hot takes that give us a lot of work to do and things to think about. And I think I want to have a hot take of hope and just say, I think it's beautiful that you even wanted to you approached me to do this podcast, meaning that you care about it. I love that that Oakland Schools is actually saying this is something we want to start thinking more about. And um, I do think that there is a lot of opportunity to advocate at the state level. I do have uh Day on the Hill in Lansing April 22nd, and we're we're trying. I want you to know that I care a lot, and I am trying. And we are meeting with legislators, we have lobbyists, and so um it's been ongoing work and there's a lot of dead ends, just like everything in life, but we will never give up. I promise you, I won't give up. So together we can do more, and every little tiny step we make, if it doesn't get you to that finish line real quick, it's still all rolling together, rolling along. So any little tiny step you make towards serving gifted students is making an impact, I promise. Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_03 38:41

Yeah, I just uh want to just give you, Michelle, a huge thank you for uh not only joining us today, but the work that you do. Yes. Uh you I know you you come in and you have great support with the colleagues you work with at Avondale, but when we think about just the larger ecosphere of education, it can feel pretty lonely in the path that you're trying to carve and the supports you're trying to bring uh for students. So a huge thank you uh to Michelle Gearman for joining us today and to all of you uh for spending this time with us. We hope you found something here to inspire your own practice and spark new ideas for your classroom and school community. So we hope you will join us next time for are we calling it our season finale?

SPEAKER_01 39:25

Season finale.

SPEAKER_04 39:25

Season finale season one of the. We made it.

SPEAKER_03 39:28

Yes, we've made it to the season finale of our yes, of our podcast. Join us next time for that uh exciting conversation that I know you won't want to miss. In the meantime, you have two more chances, this episode and next, to follow or subscribe to Teaching Tomorrow, wherever you get your podcasts, and leave us a rating or comment. It helps other educators find these conversations. Jay, you didn't tell them. Tell them what? I tell them. You tell them. That's not my job. There you go. That's your job. And if you liked what you heard, please share this episode with a colleague who could use a little inspiration in the work that they do. Until next time, keep teaching, keep learning, and keep building the tomorrow your students can believe in because here at Teaching Tomorrow, we believe.

For The 10th episode of the Teaching Tomorrow Podcast, Jay, Katie, and Steven revisit the topic of improving school attendance with Lindsay Makidon, Assistant Principal of Keys Grace Academy in Madison Heights, Michigan. Lindsay tells an amazing story of working closely with her staff to dramatically reduce chronic absenteeism with an all-hands approach that involved data, family engagement, and phone calls - a lot of phone calls. Listen and be inspired by this incredible story of one of Oakland county’s most improved schools for reducing chronic attendance. 

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening. Wherever you happen to be listening to this, the one and the only. Although if you are searching Teaching Tomorrow, yes, you might find other podcasts, but this is the only Teaching Tomorrow podcast with Jay, Katie, and Steven. I am but one of your hosts. Katie, we always say stick with the numbers. So I'm.333333% of our hosts. I'm Dr. Stephen Sneed. I'll let my hosts introduce themselves.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

Hi everybody. Jay Hafner, Oakland Schools Literacy Consultant. Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_04 0:45

Yeah, Katie Morrison, math consultant with Oakland Schools, happy to be here as well.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

And today is pretty special. I keep saying that like every episode is that. I mean, every episode is special. We're all special. It's like your children, right? All of them. Katie's laughing because we we all have multiple children.

SPEAKER_04 1:03

Well, I'm actually wondering where you're going with this. All of our children are special. Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:07

I mean, there might be one that, okay, we're gonna, you know, like play at the park and they really like the thing that we like to do, and the other one's like, but like all of them are special. So all of our episodes here at the Teaching Tomorrow Podcast are special. This one's pretty unique, though, because we're gonna be talking about gifted and talented education. What is gifted and talented education? And I'm not so certain that the public has uh even we professionals have like quite an accurate gasp, uh grasp of what that might be. Yeah. So we're gonna talk about it today with a very special guest we'll bring in in just a minute. But as of course, we'll engage in our typical banter of, and I'll tell us to you, Katie. W in your head, what is gifted and talented education? How do you make that thing work? Like within an MTSS model, right? That's all the rave now. I guess the other end of the triangle? I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. Oh, our guest is nodding her head. So I think you I think you you pinpointed it for us, Stephen. Yeah, there are a couple things I was thinking about in preparation for this. So the first one, yes, because we're really thinking about this group of students and how they fit into like the bigger system that we have within within our schools. And it feels like so often now, when we talk about MTSS, specifically from the academic side, we're really talking about like intervention for students who aren't meeting the grade level expectations. And it feels like that really monopolizes a lot of the conversation. Um, and so I feel like on, you know, from Oakland school side, we're really supporting districts and teams to think about how to build a tier one system that supports, and then from a school side, we're like, yeah, but we've got all of these kids that are in these, you know, low-performing grade bands, and how do we how do we build them up? So I think that's a part of the conversation for today is how do we expand what our definition and thinking about our MTSS system is not being exclusively from an intervention uh for students who aren't meeting needs standpoint. And then the other thing I think about is when I was a teacher, I never worked in a school or a district that had a specific like gifted program. And so it always, or a teacher or like a different curriculum or a place, right? However you're defining that for where gifted students are supported, it was always on the expectation of the teacher to come up with ways to both differentiate and scaffold down while also providing expansion opportunities up. And that feels so overwhelming as a teacher. I remember like being in a place where you're sitting there saying, Of course I want to do what's best for all of my special children. But I also only have set amounts of time, set amount of like expectations I can get through. So often it feels like I'm going more and more towards the middle. And really thinking about if that's how teachers feel, then it really is our job as leaders, both at the building level and district level, to help provide the supports to ensure that teachers aren't feeling that weight of providing all of the exclusive differentiation, especially when you don't have specific gifted programs or teachers or um set curriculums for those students.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Or even like the support, the knowledge base to be able to design and event systems that do support and engage these students. And you're right, like teachers have all this weight. We put all of this weight on the teachers now. We really have to unthink some of our current existing systems to really think differently about how we might serve kids. Jay, what do you say? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:51

Yeah, I'm I'm curious to talk to our guests today and have you know ask and talk through a lot of different things, some which are system related, I think is an important conversation uh to have, but also like framing it really specifically to the kids and and the child. Like where in what ways are we is the system designed to sort of identify a child as gifted and talented, and what does that mean? And and and what are the repercussions of of that and and making sure that we're serving the needs of the students. So I'm curious about that because I think like over the course of time, there's been an evolving nature to gifted and talented programs and the way in which we provide supports uh to students that are identified as gifted and talented. I think another thing that I'm really fascinated by is there there just seems to be a lot of like there isn't like a uniform understanding within the structure to say that like this is the work we're doing for gifted and talented students across the country for sure. Not even within the state and probably even within the county, from like one area to the next. Uh the systems, I'm not sure. And I want to unpack it a little more to see like in what ways are the systems serving each other, aligned with each other, or in conflict with one another. And so I think like when I was when I was thinking through this, I started with the question of thinking like, okay, so like is this child gifted? But then I'm like, that's a pretty like existential question that's got a lot of nuance to it. So maybe if the question that we're grappling with instead, it's not is this child gifted, but what does this child need? It gets us a little closer to the systems-based conversation around MTSS and the role it plays within. So those are those are just the thoughts I had. And really, like a lot of times when we have a guest, I feel close to the issue itself and in the unpacking and hearing this one, I'm really curious to hear what our guest has to say and feeling like engaged in doing a little learning myself around ways in which uh w we can we can do the best that we can for these kids.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

You know, that today's topic really stretches me. You know, I'm being fully transparent because when I think about system building, you know, obviously uh no matter the date that you're listening to this podcast, we are talking about like PA 146 and literacy and making sure all children and so my default position is trying to help students who aren't yet at proficiency and growth. And so today's conversation is stretching me to really think about okay, yes, and your system also needs to meet the kids who are already there and they're past there. They need something a little different.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Um and and I'm a sucker for public schools, man. I love public schools. Like this this is the only thing I've ever done professionally has been public schools. And I think it's a challenge for us in the public space, a good challenge that we need to embrace is to think about and design uh systems of support for gifted students as opposed to alternative, well, go to the private school down the street. And not that I'm shading private schools, if if people independently to choose to do that is after they choose the best of their family, that that's great. I want a high quality public education for all students. And we really have to sit and really think all means all. And although that's like, oh yeah, that's right. But when you really sit and think of it, ooh, right, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Not just some, not most, or not like a specific one-identified population, but everybody. So, Jay, I'm I'm with you in your curiosity, my good man. Uh, Katie, I believe you are going to introduce. Yes, I am.

SPEAKER_04 8:44

I'm so excited to introduce our wonderful, wonderful guest, Michelle Gearman. So, Michelle comes to us with over 20 years in education from elementary through college. She currently serves as the AI strategist and gifted education coordinator in the Avondale School District, where she co-founded the Gate Magnet School in Avondale. Additionally, she serves as an advocacy chair for the Michigan Association for Gifted Children and is the AI ambassador and AI State steering committee member for Michigan Virtual. So Michelle has a lot of things going for her. And a lot of titles. Yes, and a lot of titles.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

You know, I'm in good company because I'm also very curious. And that's what keeps me seeking opportunities to learn more, and that's where all these extra hats come on. All right. Um but I love that you're curious. That's the best place to be when to talk about something. And so I think since we're start, I heard you starting with curiosity. I'm gonna start with maybe just some misconceptions that can be out there around. Break it down, break it down. Yes. And so um, one of them is when we think gifted children, we think high achieving. A lot of times that's what, like if you just say close your eyes and picture, you know, gifted children learning. Um, that's you picture things like that, like young Sheldon and things like that, where they have this high achieving capacity, and they may have some differences um socially or little things like that, but people don't picture um like two E or twice exceptional students. People don't picture underachieving gifted students, of which there are many, um, because of the fact that we don't have systems in place to engage them specifically. And gifted so twice exceptional going along with that, what does twice exceptional mean? So you are gifted, but you also have dyslexia. There is a correlation. You also have ADHD, there is a correlation. You might be on the ASD spectrum, and there giftedness has a correlation with all of those. Um, and not just twice exceptional, but gifted students in general have something called asynchronous development. And people think of that as, oh, you know, you have a seven-year-old, and they can do ninth grade math, but um socially they behave more like a four-year-old. And so they think of things, but really it can also be that you have skills in one area, one way of thinking, maybe verbal linguistic, but you are underdeveloped in executive functioning or your numeracy or things like that. So um to be gifted can look so many different ways. Yeah. And so, um, and I love that you're talking about, you know, the empathy for teachers too. So step one, as Jay pointed out, would be identification. How do we know what these kids need? We don't have to call them gifted or or anything, but if I notice a student is struggling perhaps with reading um and understanding sound and letter correspondence, you know, we're thinking maybe they maybe they have an issue with dyslexia, maybe they haven't had the right instruction. But what do they need, right? They need for us to to use the science of reading, right? And to up the intensity as much as we need to until it works. And it's the same thing for gifted kids. If they're not engaging in the content, there could be some asynchronous development, there could be some gaps. There could be some ways that um their emotional intensity or their need for autonomy and relevance um is really what they need. And so when you think about things like universal design for learning as a tier one approach, which I know Oakland Schools is amazing. I've been to your universal design uh learning things. And there's a lot you can do with it.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

We didn't even pay her to say that.

SPEAKER_03 12:38

Well done. We can end the episode now. We've got to pay her to say that.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

They did it. Um but really it does work well because if you are embedding right in there a lot of voice and choice and some different differentiated experiences students can have, um, gifted students might need to choose in some subjects something that has more scaffolding. They might need more thin slicing in and in math for something. So um it works for everybody, right? It is universal design for learning, but um that's really the tier one approach. If you are identifying some students and you're saying, okay, their their needs aren't being met, I'm not sure why. And now that I've heard of this thing, this gifted, what is that? What does it look like? And I can definitely share some resources for any listeners that would like them. Um there's some free modules online that are free to to anyone on edupaths because we don't have mandates or funding in Michigan. We haven't since um around 2009. It's been a while. So it's it's not we don't we don't have like a lot of conversation around these things. And so it's like, okay, well, where are the resources? I'd love to identify these kids. I'd love to get some professional development around that. But because there is no mandate and there is no funding, um, whereas when it comes to the science of reading and dyslexia, there is there are mandates or if there's funding, um, it's harder to come by those resources. And so, you know, I want to frame today around some very low prep, um getting started things like identification and resources. And then if you do, if you're at a place as a listener where you're you have good tier one, you have an understanding of what gifted students might look like when they're not engaging or they're asking more questions than they are answering them. Um, high achieving students, their hands always up, they've got all the answers. You can have high achieving gifted students, or you might have a gifted student who asks a lot of questions, doesn't produce a lot of work, even though verbally it sounds like they could. You know, what's going on there? Um and also gifted students come from all different backgrounds. When you when you do have some sort of universal testing in place, um, you are reaching so many more of your underserved populations, and people sometimes forget to see how many underserved populations fall into that gifted category and what serving them can do for their for their life in so many ways.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Well, Michelle, let me let me ask you this this question because we like to we we hope we have a bifurcated audience here teaching tomorrow or classroom teachers like what can you do tomorrow? But then also like school leaders, like like what how can I think about my school and supporting my kiddos? So talk to the the building leader or the district leader who's listening to this right now. What might be some things that they could do at a broader school-wide and or district wide level to really get into uh identifying and supporting students who are gifted. What could our leaders do?

SPEAKER_00 15:40

I think being curious would be the the first basic thing and saying, I want to know more about what gifted students might look like or need so that then they can find those resources. And we live in a world where it's not super difficult to find resources, but making sure those resources are high-quality resources that do talk about the many portraits of gifted learners because there are many. Um and if that leader, you know, is curious about that and learns about that and finds resources to share to just bring that shared understanding and how can we make space for that? I'll be honest. When we think about equity, when you start to make space for this understanding of portraits of gifted learners, that time, that energy, it's not gonna come from that extra time and energy you had laying around because that doesn't exist. You're gonna have to say to yourself, why is this important in our district right now? And how much time can I carve out from somewhere else? When is it a good time to do that? Yeah, when is an appropriate time to be okay to do that? Um, and everyone's in a different place with whether they have time, capacity, you know, and readiness to do that. But being curious, you can start now. And when you have that spare time to find out things on your own to start to share, you also might want to pull your community. Who in your community already knows some things? I bet you have some parents of gifted students who just are very curious about how to serve their child and advocate for their child. So you'd be surprised, even in our 28 districts in Oakland County, how many parents of gifted children there are that I've spoken to who have a lot of knowledge around because they were trying to figure out what portrait of a gifted student does my baby belong to and what do they need. So draw on that capacity that you already have. That's another way to be curious. Um, so those would be some good first first steps.

SPEAKER_04 17:37

Yeah, I think one of the things we love to do is talk about best practices. And I love that you dove right into telling us about what's something the teacher can do. And Stephen brought us in to think about leaders. I wonder if we could like step back a little bit because I think there's a couple things that you've elicited in the conversation that I think are worthy of like greater exploration. So the first is that the state of Michigan, based on what you said, doesn't currently provide additional money or resources for specific gifted education programming. Is that correct? That is very sadly correct. And so I am hoping you might be able to shed some light on Avondale's story, right? We said in your introduction that you helped co-found the Gate Magnet program at Avondale. And we love highlighting and elevating sharing stories and want to make sure that Avondale gets all the credit and um shoutouts that it deserves. So I wonder if you could, as much as you are willing to share with us, like what is Avondale's story and journey in in creating this kind of programming and space in your district?

SPEAKER_00 18:40

So yeah, I would love to tell Avondale's story. Um so it's shout out to Avondale. Thank you. Um so Avondale started really with this particular journey based on some parents who came to the board and said, are you willing to look into serving gifted students and kind of bringing up some of the misconceptions right away and some of the things that they felt their children needed? Um and one thing I love about Avondale is I have to say Avondale is a district that doesn't mind being unique, doesn't mind trying new things, and it's small enough and family enough that those lines of communication are tight enough that you can kind of make change in a at a reasonable pace. And so they said yes. And so I'll try to include the most important parts on the timeline because I could go into a whole fireside chat for like an hour and I won't do that.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Well, we'll bring you in for like a part two.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

Season two, part two.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Um but so then the work began and they started saying, okay, and so they found myself and Kate Martin, and um we began the work and began design and Kate had a background in uh North Carolina with gifted education. I had a background um in all of my education. I have a gifted son, and so I had just always been passionate about that. So even though Michigan didn't have things in place when I was implementing things, um, that's where my curiosity started from. And so we had kind of a an interesting mix of skills ourselves, and we dove right into best practices and gifted education and um what are some different curriculums like we liked Jacob's Latter and William William and Mary. We talked about curriculum compacting, which is kind of a tier two thing. We talked about pre and post assessments to really understand, meet kids where they are. Um, and so just really got into a lot of discussion over like a whole summer. Um, and when we and then we had to start with the the one of the hardest things is identification. And so we've had a journey through that. We started with we had our NWEA testing and we had these writing samples and some different things that first year. We now and also include the Cogat over the last several years, which is a cognitive abilities test. Um and so that's where it started. And that first year, you know, what that we did our uh screening, we realized we need to change a couple of things about the screening um to make it and so in including the COGAT. Um, and we learned that wow, you know, we are getting many different portraits of gifted learners, and they are some of them are very high verbal linguistically, some of them it's math. They're not globally gifted in every subject. Wow, we have some intense emotions, some asynchronous development, some twice exceptional students with high needs. Um, and we, you know, we expected that, right? Because we were we had background and we we talked about it. But even with that small sampling of population, it just it was obvious this is hard work. It takes time. And we intentionally grew slow from the beginning because we needed to keep adding on systems and adding on multi tiered systems of supports so that we could get to a place um to Expand. And so I will say that I think that was our secret sauce was growing slow enough, being small enough, meeting often enough, and staying really student centered. Um, and you do have to communicate with the families quite a bit because of the uniqueness of um the portraits of gifted students as well. And you have to do that with all students. Um, but these parents are usually ready to advocate. And that is an extra challenge. As a parent of a gifted child, I was ready for it because I know what it feels like to feel like you need to advocate and no one even knows what you're talking about because there's no system and no vocabulary in place and you're talking a foreign language. Um, so that's been one of the most wonderful parts is really listening to families and getting to a place of understanding and really seeing the children and helping each other um from both sides. And um, yeah, so that would be like the start of the journey. And and from there we've just expanded as we could. Um, of course, we've had difficulties like you know, change in leadership, which we're in such an excellent place now, but that's hard. Changing buildings, that's challenging.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Um, changing curriculums, you know. And so all of those things along the way, um, the trajectory is has a little bit up and down as we go towards continuous improvement. Right now we meet weekly as a team for our gifted programming, and um, that's hard to commit to, but without it, we wouldn't be able to do what we do.

SPEAKER_03 23:35

Yeah. I wanna I wanna talk a little bit about coherence across the system that we're talking about in regards to to gifted and talented. And I mentioned this earlier that it feels in and you mentioned it also, this this idea that we don't even have like a really a coherent language, even from like one area to the next in how we talk about or even define gifted and talented, let alone be able to identify and then provide the supports. The one thing that I have heard in this conversation that does bring a little coherence and understanding is the relationship it has with MTSS. MTSS is beginning or or it is in an area where it's a coherent language of understanding. We definitely have different levels of implementation, but I think whether whether you're living in Avondale or Ferndale or Michigan or New York, there is an understanding around MTSS and its inherent understanding of what it's supposed to do. So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about, you know, so I guess it's like a two-part question. Number one, the way in which MTSS specifically plays a role in providing support for gifted and talented students, that's number one. And number two is like from there, what other conversations are you having, if any, with like those in neighboring districts or those in neighboring states? Like, where is that conversation happening to sort of bring just a little more alignment and coherence around what it is we mean when we say gifted and talented?

SPEAKER_00 25:05

That's an excellent question. So for the multi-tiered systems of supports in Avondale, um, for me, this is my third year as the gifted education coordinator. So I'm in all seven buildings, right? We have our magnet school, we're it's all public school. Um our magnet school is a center program. Um, and so the teachers there have had more training with some of those high needs for SEL, emotional intensity, and things like that. Um, but we do also, I am in all the the buildings for tier one. And a lot of what we do is we talk about 3P learning, UDL. Um, I help teachers look at different data to identify students. Um, we piloted using the Naglieri nonverbal assessment in one of our buildings. And um, you know, we you know, what I love about that is um it's nonverbal. It's completely pictorial directions. And so we do have, you know, you have some ELD students and some students who um might be in special ed but also be gifted. And so I was it's really great to have these experiences where teachers have this like paradigm shift or this mind shift of what does it mean to be gifted? Um, how might that present? And so just any time I'm seeing in buildings where we're able to reach more students. So tier one is really that we are trying to increase the culture of understanding around what giftedness might look like. And um, sometimes it's your students who are high energy and uh I'll just be honest, a behavior problem. Um, and they're bored and they refuse to engage. I mean, they're saying I already know this, but they refuse to even show you because for them, doing something that feels irrelevant feels unfair and they have this strong sense of justice. And so the inclination is to be like, well, they must not know it, or and sometimes they don't. I won't say gifted students don't sometimes say this is too easy because they're the fear of that identity complex and they actually don't know. That happens too. So many things happen. But um, but just building this understanding. And what I love about it is, you know, like at Avondale High School, the teachers there, if they see a student that you know, their their papers are all a mess, they don't turn things in on time, and it does they're not gonna say, well, how could they be gifted? Because they know asynchronous development, lack of executive functioning, that could be a sign of giftedness. But I'm hearing things they say and I'm seeing some data that really doesn't match up with their performance. So what does this student need? Or what am I even, what is learning and what am I assessing in the first place? Like, why is there a mismatch in general, right? And so, because um, we know we gifted students really do, um, just to be a little, you know, in the field for a minute, they really do have this need for purpose and they want to learn and they're curious, and they have these intense emotions and existential crises about is life worth anything? Does anything even matter? Is this all a joke? What is school? Why am I here? And so um, when you can channel that and really get to understand them and make school relevant for them, um, it can be a beautiful thing and it it really is kind of contagious. Like I love working with students, you know, in all of the buildings. And sometimes it's not, it's the buildings that aren't a center program that can be the most rewarding because families who had no idea their child was gifted are finding that out. Um, students who are behind in reading um are being recognized because we're seeing, oh, you're you have some of these gifted tendencies. And so um there's other ways for that to show up. And when students have these ways of demonstrating who they are and being themselves, they they do, and they're they might be in intervention and gifted supports. It can happen, you know, and so just seeing children for who they are and seeing what they need, what whoever they are, is tier one. And then just universal design for learning um is also part of that. And when you're doing projects um at any level, you know, high school, middle school, elementary level, there's a chance for everyone to see themselves in that solution. What is that problem you're working on? Um, I can see myself in that solution. I don't have to be someone who goes to college to see myself in that, and not all gifted students want to go to college or need to, right? And so, like just providing those opportunities for everybody to feel a sense of belonging and be seen and have the learning be relevant to them. So, kind of breaking out of some of the linear models can really help you to be able to do that. And so being flexible, that that's the tier one. And so then tier two, of course, is gonna be getting into pre and post assessments, maybe some curriculum compacting. That is a lot of work if you haven't had um professional development in that area. It's not something you can just say, I'll do that tomorrow. Um, it's hard and it takes time and carving out space for that is hard. Tier two, it's hard to go to the tier two level because then tier three might be an actual grade acceleration, where maybe you have your two, three hallway, second and third grade hallway, um teaching second, third, and fourth grade math or or more or beyond. It takes a lot of teaming. So to go beyond the tier one, it's really about being a team, collaboration and unity with your team.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

But let me ask you this question. I know we're running out of time here. Uh just to be clear, like Avondale Gate is a school. Like you have a separate school, so it's not like a program, it is a school.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

It's a school, it's its own building, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

It's its own building. What made you all decide to go that route as opposed to like a program in schools or like here's some extra things for teachers to do? Like, what was that like you're at the crossover points, like, ooh, we need to do something really different here with a with an entirely separate school? How did that decision play out?

SPEAKER_00 30:48

I think it was listening to our community that had already been in schools that were trying to do that, and we already were a district that did talk about differentiation. We already had quite a wide variety of learning abilities. Um and so we started our first year in Woodland. So we were just two classrooms in Woodland. We had 30 kids our first year. Now we have over 400 just for the gate magnet program.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Wait a minute, hold up, pause. You have how many kids?

SPEAKER_00 31:13

We'll have over 400 next year.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

400 next year.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

From a staff of two, just me and Kate doing the curriculum design, the everything to now a staff of like 30, over 30. So it's that's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 31:24

Yeah. How long did it take you to grow that?

SPEAKER_00 31:27

So from 2017 until now. Wow. Yeah. And and that might sound fast, but I feel like we, you know, we could have gone faster based on the needs and the people who wanted to be a part of the program, but um, you know, we tried to go as slow as we possibly could. But the people who initially came to us um asking for this and came to the board asking for this, and the things they were talking about really did lend itself to a cohort of students that would get highly specialized instruction. Um, and students that really needed, you know, we had even in that first couple of years students that were many grade levels ahead. Um, and so we were like, okay, we do want to be able to um talk about the UDL principles. And it was called something a little bit different back then, but we wanted to be able to talk about how to meet these kids' needs and do some pre and post assessments. And that culture started everywhere and started to spread, especially at Woodland where we were housed. Um and Woodland tradition, you know, was doing a lot of the things that we were doing with the tier one as far as differentiation and pre and post test and things like that. So we teamed with them. Um and then with the kids who are actually a part of those classrooms, a lot of them did have some higher needs and did really have more um and so for them, we really do believe in homogenous grouping being an important part of a gifted student's day, meaning they are able to learn alongside peers at the same level and challenge each other and motivate each other. But there's also some time um for mixed grouping as well. Um and right now when I work with students, it's uh it's push-in where I co-teach with teachers in the classroom. It's pull out where I have cohorts in different in all the different buildings, and then they bring their learning into the classroom and it spreads. And when kids are presenting learning and other kids say, I want to do that, can I do that? Yes, you can. It's for everyone. You like, like you want to read that challenging book? Absolutely. Let's support you so that you're able to do that. So I think it's important to note you don't have to isolate these kids. You want to be able to have some of that homogenous grouping and those that cohorting time for them. Um, but you also want to have some time for them to be a part of the whole world and and have as much social experience as possible. So that's important too.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Well, speaking of time, man, we definitely need to bring her back backhand for our part two. I feel like we've barely scratched the surface. Yeah. But what's such a rich conversation? We're gonna transition to our hot topic time where we're just gonna throw out a little or a a hot, hot take, hot takes rather, uh on this. Uh I'll kind of go first, but really quickly. Budget. If you are a school leader, yeah, you need to really be thinking about this is a population of kids that probably is underserved in your space. And as leaders, uh and even for my teachers who are aspiring leaders as well. Uh how do we put our money where our mouth is? So if this is really important, if we really want to support this, you know, obviously there's larger conversations at the state, but even within your cool community, how can we allocate resources in such a way that support the this these these group of kids? That's my hot take. Jay, what about you? What you want to do?

SPEAKER_03 34:38

Yeah, I mean, I was struck by, you know, the uh this the uh the fact that you brought to the table that Michigan hasn't funded gifted and talented education since, what was it, 2009? Since 2009, and that gets me thinking like when there is a lack of funding, there tends to be a lack of urgency around creating systems of support around it. So as Steven said, let's put our money where our mouth is. I'm thinking we need to put our money where our systems aren't and and figure out a way to create systems and lean in MTSS in a way that maybe takes the triangle and makes it more of a diamond that becomes a little more inclusive of the needs of gifted and talented students. The other thing I was struck by, and I think it's important to mention here really quickly, is you mentioned on a number of occasions parents advocating on behalf of their students to boards. You yourself have had to advocate on behalf of your own son. And while we definitely encourage all the parent advocacy, if parent advocacy is the thing that's driving impact in a district, that's an equitability issue. That means we don't have the systems there to service the students. If it takes parents at board meetings to advocate for groups and subsets of students, we are failing them on an equitability basis. And so, yeah, that's that's my hot take. Let's put our money where our systems aren't and really take a really close hard look at ways in which we can turn the triangle into a more of a diamond support within MTSS.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

Because you know what they say about diamonds. Diamonds are forever. Hopefully that didn't violate copyright. Katie, oh, it did.

SPEAKER_04 36:18

Oh, I was I thought you were gonna say something about a shape that was really hard to break, but no. Okay. Um so yes, y'all go deep today, right? So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um yeah, I was thinking, you know, there's something that Michelle said, building off of what Jay said, um, about like really thinking about your system and saying I'm gonna have to carve out yes money, yes, resources, think about my system, but also like the time and the energy, right? To really think about like if I give my time and energy to this, it means inevitably I'm going to have to take away from somewhere else. And so my hot take is like thinking about like a meeting structure that already exists, right? So when we have our weekly or bi-weekly or monthly MTS meetings where we're looking at data and we're looking at students, and we typically ask questions about what students aren't. I'm going to push everyone to ask a second question that has them really thinking about well, what students are ready to go further? And what are we specifically doing to support those students who have shown us and proven to us that they're ready to go beyond what we're doing?

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Go ahead, Katie. Well, as always, we leave our last hot take to our esteemed guests. You take us out. What's your hot take?

SPEAKER_00 37:39

Well, you three all had hot takes that give us a lot of work to do and things to think about. And I think I want to have a hot take of hope and just say, I think it's beautiful that you even wanted to you approached me to do this podcast, meaning that you care about it. I love that that Oakland Schools is actually saying this is something we want to start thinking more about. And um, I do think that there is a lot of opportunity to advocate at the state level. I do have uh Day on the Hill in Lansing April 22nd, and we're we're trying. I want you to know that I care a lot, and I am trying. And we are meeting with legislators, we have lobbyists, and so um it's been ongoing work and there's a lot of dead ends, just like everything in life, but we will never give up. I promise you, I won't give up. So together we can do more, and every little tiny step we make, if it doesn't get you to that finish line real quick, it's still all rolling together, rolling along. So any little tiny step you make towards serving gifted students is making an impact, I promise. Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_03 38:41

Yeah, I just uh want to just give you, Michelle, a huge thank you for uh not only joining us today, but the work that you do. Yes. Uh you I know you you come in and you have great support with the colleagues you work with at Avondale, but when we think about just the larger ecosphere of education, it can feel pretty lonely in the path that you're trying to carve and the supports you're trying to bring uh for students. So a huge thank you uh to Michelle Gearman for joining us today and to all of you uh for spending this time with us. We hope you found something here to inspire your own practice and spark new ideas for your classroom and school community. So we hope you will join us next time for are we calling it our season finale?

SPEAKER_01 39:25

Season finale.

SPEAKER_04 39:25

Season finale season one of the. We made it.

SPEAKER_03 39:28

Yes, we've made it to the season finale of our yes, of our podcast. Join us next time for that uh exciting conversation that I know you won't want to miss. In the meantime, you have two more chances, this episode and next, to follow or subscribe to Teaching Tomorrow, wherever you get your podcasts, and leave us a rating or comment. It helps other educators find these conversations. Jay, you didn't tell them. Tell them what? I tell them. You tell them. That's not my job. There you go. That's your job. And if you liked what you heard, please share this episode with a colleague who could use a little inspiration in the work that they do. Until next time, keep teaching, keep learning, and keep building the tomorrow your students can believe in because here at Teaching Tomorrow, we believe.

In this episode, Shanita Canady, Detroit educator and community leader, shares insights on how to make STEM a place where girls truly belong. Drawing on her work in computer science education and community programming, she discusses how schools can break down gender stereotypes, build inclusive learning environments, and inspire more girls to see themselves as future innovators and leaders in STEM.

SPEAKER_03 0:16

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome, good morning, good evening, good afternoon, wherever you happen to be listening to the Teaching Tomorrow podcast with Jay, Katie, and Steven. I am one of 33.3% of your hosts, Steven.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

So Alpha Poe to throw a stat on our episode today. I am a few maths.

SPEAKER_04 0:41

And I am Jay Hafner, Oakland Schools Literacy Consultant. Happy to be here as a point 33.33. 333. It's 33. 33.33.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

How you represent.

SPEAKER_04 0:56

Oh, I do.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

You started saying both.

SPEAKER_04 0:59

I'm going to represent as a third. I think I'll get you together.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

I was going to say you like started one way and then morphed into another way. So, you know, a percentage, a decimal or a fraction. All of it. Either way.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

All of it. I'm one leg of a stool. We're always learning and teaching here at the Teaching Tomorrow Podcast with Jay Katie and Steve. This is a real, this is going to be a fun one. To be fair, I think all of our episodes are fun ones, but I'm really interested and passionate in this particular topic today. Today's topic, how do we make STEM a place where girls belong? How? Not if, but how do we make STEM a place where girls belong? And so we're going to bring on our guest here in a minute. She got some letters behind her name. Like she ain't new to this. She's true to this. So we're excited to bring her in in a few minutes. But kicking us off, how do we make STEM a place where girls belong? And I think this will come out a lot in our conversation where we're really talking about like identity work, right? How do we shape and mold and not incidentally, but intentionally build those experiences with our girls to build that identity that I am a scientist and I belong and I can contribute in the community of science and engineering and math from a very young age, right? So I think a lot of times in the parent community, uh, we think about uh uh like getting to advanced science and like middle school and high school, and of course we want to, you know, shift more girls to those courses. I think starting at middle schools and high school with that identity work is too late. Like that's too, too late. Now I'm not saying if if you're listening, like if you haven't started, go ahead start. Start wherever you are. It is no judgment. We love you at the Teaching Tomorrow podcast here with JK. But if you are influential in a K through 12 space, get to the babies. Yeah. Right? Get to the babies to shape that identity a perhaps a little earlier than what the broader society might be thinking of, or at least that's my idea. Jay, what about you? How do we make STEM a place where girls belong?

SPEAKER_04 3:11

Yeah, I think it's uh it it all starts at a young formative age, I think is the is the entry point. But it's not just it's reframing how we think about this. Okay, okay. It's I don't in my and this is I I just I don't think it's about how do we get more girls interested in STEM. It's how do we create spaces that is deserving of girls to be to want to be a part of it, deserving, uh yeah, creating those spaces that welcomes them. And it's not just like, you know, a whisper that, you know, this is good for you. Come on in. It is literally how do we encapsulate their their interests, their voice, their their place and their space within this STEM community. And if you do that at an early age, they it it grows into a space where they want to be a part of it. They feel valued in this space. And so I think it's interesting. We're gonna have this conversation specific to STEM because it's important. But I think a lot of what we're gonna talk about today speaks to a larger inclusion model, but bigger than that. It's it's it's spaces within our society. It's creating opportunities for young ladies to be included, involved, and ultimately grow into into the leaders that we all know that they that they are.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think like in preparation for this, I was doing some like research on stats out there in terms of like that identity piece. And we talk about like such a young age, and studies are showing that girls as early as six years old are determining that STEM science math isn't a field that's for them. Um, six years old. I mean, that's that's our kindergartners, right? And so, you know, you talk about our families and our parents and all of those messages that they're receiving even before they enter the kindergarten space, are are channeling what it means to be a scientist, a mathematician, and an engineer that have long-lasting implications on who's represented in these fields. And, you know, one of the reasons I'm so excited about our guests, who we'll introduce in a second, is because she spent time in the educational world as a teacher, but also in the corporate world and was able to see what representation of females looks like when we, as early as six years old, are saying that these places aren't the kind of spaces that you belong, but also that, you know, are valued places for you to be a part of. Um, and so why don't we go ahead and introduce our guests? Let's go. So I am really excited today to welcome our guest, Shanita Kennedy, is a Detroit-based educator, programmer, and community leader with a strong passion for equity and technology and public spaces. She spearheaded computer science education programs as DPSCD's senior director of the Office of Computer Science. She has computed contributed to regional leadership as part of the Inforum Michigan, Southeast Michigan Regional Council. Got a word, a mouthful there, advocating for women's advancement and community development through strategic programming and is currently leading public programming and partnerships at the Doe Lewis Greenway Partnership. So welcome to our podcast. And as I mentioned, you've spent time and spaces in both schools, but also in the community. And so I want to start with, in your personal experience, what have you noticed about the representation of girls and women in the STEM field, and why is it such an important topic for K-12 educators to be thinking about?

SPEAKER_01 6:55

Yeah, so like you said, I started off in education, took a little bit of a hiatus and worked for a couple of years at GE as a software engineer. And really what I saw is there weren't very many women there. Um, out of our team of five, there were two of us. Um, oftentimes we were overlooked, over talked, um, given, you know, the easiest task of the project. Um, and so that just really got me to thinking, you know, if I'm if I'm experiencing this at 37 years old as an adult in the workforce, what are we gonna go back and tell our young girls who may have aspirations of, you know, being in this career area? And so that's when I really, really got started volunteering. Um, I volunteered at the Michigan Science Center with their steminista program. And uh you someone said it before, starting as early as possible. Um, even in that program, I was working with girls in third and fourth grade who said, Oh, yeah, I'm a Python programmer. I know how to do Python, I've done C. And I thought that's amazing. Um, and so it's really all about the confidence. The earlier you you you you get them interested and you expose them to these things and you tell them that you do belong and you're just as much a scientist as an and an engineer as anyone else, then they never think anything different. They just grow up with that in their heads.

SPEAKER_03 8:12

Like this is just normal.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

This is just how the world this is just normal. This is how it should be. And it is normal, right?

SPEAKER_03 8:17

Yeah, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Yeah. Yeah. So in your experience, what are some of the subtle or maybe not so subtle, barriers that keep girls and women from pursuing STEM fields?

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Sure. So honestly, when I think about even in my personal experience, it starts at home. And I don't think it's purposeful, but I know thinking about my experience, I was never really pushed to be an engineer, not at a young age. It was always, oh, you can be a teacher, oh, maybe you'll be a nurse, maybe you'll be a news reporter. It was never you could be an engineer, a mathematician, a technologist. And so um inadvertently, you know, we we don't push girls towards those fields. And so we just start to think, oh, well, that's that's not for us, right? So um there, and then even in schools, once again, inadvertently, even as teachers, sometimes we tend for math things or engineering things or things that require our hands in building things to rely more on the boys or to call more on the boys to do those things, or the counselors will refer the boys to those types of classes and they'll refer the girls. I was in the, you know, I took a lot of business classes, I took accounting and things like that in high school. I wasn't really pushed to do the science and the math. So I I really don't think it's purposeful, but I I don't know, it's so ingrained in us for so long that it's just kind of automatic where we push the boys versus the girls.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

Yeah, so I'm I'm wondering, like at the you know, there's say what you will though, like like policies, like district wide or statewide policies. You know, the the Teaching Tomorrow podcast aims to have teachers and like building level, school level leaders to be our core listening audience. And so I'm wondering, like, given that's where we currently are, if I'm if I'm a school leader, if I'm a teacher, how do I deprogram, right? So let's say I'm with you, I'm like, yeah, I I want to do, I want to start like like day one. What's something that let's just start with like a classroom teacher, a first grade teacher who's self-contained, so he or she is teaching all the subjects except for the specials, right? Um what would be some things that they could do to sort of deprogram where we are to reprogram towards a different trajectory?

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Yeah, it really starts with thinking about making sure that we represent all different types of people. Even when we think about how we decorate our classroom, who's on the posters that we're putting up? Are we putting up and this is not just for girls, this could be religion, race, culture, but who are we putting up there? Because really every child that walks into that classroom should be able to see someone that looks like them that they can relate to. So the type of people we put, the different fields that they're in, um, even interest-wise. So I noticed a lot even when I first started teaching coding, they wanted me to have a video game focus. Everything is very game-based. And that's great for the people that like that. But what about the people who aren't interested in video games, right? So making sure that even the activities that we do are diverse. Yeah, you may do one activity that deals with video games, but maybe another activity is something else. So really asking the kids what their interests are, I think is the best thing.

SPEAKER_03 11:35

Wait a minute, one more time. Could you say that one more time? Say that what you just said one more time.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Ask them what they want, let them be in charge of their own learning. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:44

But I I think that's so powerful. I, you know, I say that tongue in cheek because I think sometimes, you know, so in full transparency, we are Jay, Katie, and Steve and I are uh employees of an ISD consultancy where we have a certain level of expert. And I think, you know, there's like, well, what does the research say? What do the experts say about the thing? And then there's of course an appropriate space for that. What do the kids say? Like, what do they say that they want and need from their own education? And I still feel like in many spaces, we don't give that enough energy. So we've we've planned the meal for you, and we're trying to like get you to buy in to like this thing that we've made, with you in mind, but really the adults have made the experience based upon adult biases, adult wants, adult desires. And and I just I think it's brutal that you've said that that the more we can put our kids in the driver's seat, particularly our girls, about what they want for themselves. And I even think it's a two-way street, right? It's asking them gets them to think about what they want for themselves. Because they might not know at first, but we need to engage them in that cognitive self-reflection and thinking, and again, identity shaping of, well, yeah, I am the master of my destiny and my the world is my oyster, right? It's not just this pre-programmed flight check that you've made for me. And sometimes, sometimes again, looking in the mirror, the lesson plan can feel like that. Here's the checklist of the stuff that I've planned that you got to go through. Sometimes you just gotta slow up and let the the kids, our young girls, really self-direct, you know, their learning and really allow them to direct us. Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_04 13:30

Yeah, I'm uh you know, I really want to get at like how we frame STEM in general, especially to our the you know, our kindergartners, first graders, and second graders. And it's you like you you brought it up and you said so much of it defaults into like programming or gaming, but it's really about creativity and it's about problem solving, it's about collaboration and working together. These are if you think about like creativity, problem solving, and collaboration and unpack what those mean, those are barn doors for girls to walk through, right? They are wide open spaces for girls to walk through at a young age to be able to see how they make those connections to STEM. So, my my question to you, and what I'm what I get what I'm curious about unpacking is maybe some of the specific work that you've done in your career to engage the the elementary girls or just students in general around STEM. How are what's the best practice around framing what STEM is, opportunities that it provides? How what's some of the work you've done to just frame STEM at the elementary level?

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Yeah, it's it's I love the way you said it about it being about collaboration, problem solving. Um a lot of times we we talk about computational thinking, right? So that can apply to really any subject area. Um, but really we let them know we want you to be able to think critically. We want you to be able to think about problems that you may have in your home, in your personal life, in your neighborhood, and how you can use technology to solve those things. And when we can make it relatable like that, that's when the kids really get into it because they're like, hey, this is something I can use today. I can actually take this out in the world and use it. It's relevant to me now. It's not just something my teachers are making me do because I have to be here. Um, and so we've done a lot of work surrounding that. First of all, just letting them know that we're all learning together. It's nothing to be afraid of. You're going to make mistakes. That's the first thing, especially when I'm teaching kids how to code. I tell them, you're gonna fail many, many times. So let's just get that out the way right now. Don't be afraid to do that. You're gonna fail, I'm gonna fail, but eventually we're gonna get it right. And there's nothing wrong with that. And so just getting them out of that fear of not being right all the time. Because really in STEM, a lot of it is, you know, it's it's creativity, it's problem solving, but it's also there are multiple ways to solve the same problem. So there's no one correct answer. So don't worry about that. Yeah, just think about the unique way that you can solve that problem.

SPEAKER_04 16:15

Yeah, and framing that is it to young kids in particular is an exciting way. How is it being allowed to fail, right? Being able to fall down and get back up and try again. Um, you know, full disclosure, I have a second grade daughter. And when she comes home and and has, when she's learned things in school, uh, science in particular, that relate to things that are going on in our house and in our community, when she's bringing those home, trying those things out at home, having conversations about failing and not getting it right, but let's think about a different way to solve it. She's not processing that failure as a bad thing. She's processing it as a challenge that she's really eager and anxious to solve and to continue with. And I think that is that is something that I think we can bring and frame around around this topic, with young girls in particular, is building up the courage to be able to say, I didn't do it this time. There's another way to get at it. Let me get at this problem, let me be a part of this and let me lead through this. I think that's an exciting opportunity, but sometimes we don't necessarily frame it as an exciting opportunity, right? And so it's just sort of like, you know, we we just close off those walls and those opportunities don't exist. And that can be, you know, frustrating.

SPEAKER_03 17:36

Well, I'm I'm wondering where you I want to go deeper into this aspect of like fear and and risk and chance taking. What's your experience of like where that comes from?

SPEAKER_01 17:48

That's an excellent question because to be honest, that's something I still grapple with even now, right? In my everyday work. And I don't know what it is, but it seems to affect women the most. Even just in my conversations with my husband, you know, I'll say certain things and he's like, oh, that's fine. If it doesn't work out, you'll just try something else. No big deal. But for me, it's like, well, no, I want to do it right. I don't want to fail. And so I even thinking way back, maybe just from our childhood, when we're playing with dolls, think about Barbie dolls and how perfect looking they are. You know, I feel like we're just always meant to do everything right and to be nice and perfect. And, you know, it just kind of spirals as we get older. It just stays in the back of our minds that um, you know, we have to be nice and we can't fail. We're afraid to try things. And what if I try it and it doesn't work? Um, and it just seems like men don't have that. They're like, if I try it and it doesn't work out, I'll try something else. Who cares? So trying to get those thoughts out of their head is what I've really worked a lot with.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Yeah, yeah. So I there's a lot of things circulating in my head. I mean, one of the things that we're talking about, um, connected to like asking the kids what they want, making it relevant, like bringing it to real problems, feels like something that's like best practice and good for all students, not just for girls. Um, and so that's really circulating with me. But there's also like I I looked up a stat for this episode, and it's just something that I like can't move past, and I'm so interested in everybody, you know, Shanidi, your perspective on this. So when I read college boards, like most recent statistics where they're laying out the demographics of who takes AP tests, and in their most recent um data that in which they they put out there said that female high school students account for only 23% of AP computer science and 29% of AP physics students. And I just like Yeah, that's I mean, I just think about when we're talking about representation and like, you know, girls seeing themselves on the walls and then the relevance, but just like what it means to walk into a class in which you are only one of two. Or three other girls in a classroom of 30 kids, and what that just automatically says about whether or not you belong in that space. And I just, it's really, really very important. And think about that stat too.

SPEAKER_04 20:14

That means if that stat, that's a high school AP class, that means we're losing the other 80%, 70 to 80%, well before they walk into high school. And that is we we have to we have to admit that. We have to own that.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

I mean, and do people know that?

SPEAKER_03 20:33

Yeah. But you know, like but but I'm seeing all of these things kind of congeal together with with what you just said, Janina, about this culture of of fear or hesitance to take risks. So yeah, like how do we bust through that? Like like what are systems, structures, even ways of thinking and talking, you know, within our schools to reverse this sort of mentality of I'm not gonna do that because that's hard and I'll fail, so I'm not gonna try that. Like how, what it what can we do to sort of fight that culture? Because I think that culture then bleeds into the 23% of AP science uh represented by women. And we know that a lot of our honors and AP classes have lots of underrepresentation within them. So I but I think the universal bond that might be exactly what you just said, because you smart. Um so yeah, what what can we do?

SPEAKER_01 21:32

Yeah, I think once again, it starts early, as early as possible. But I think we've had a lot of success also in separating and having focused groups that just focus on girls, right? So things like Girls Who Code, Black Girls Code, the Michigan Council of Women and Technology, programs like that that actually just separate the girls, give them some leadership abilities, give them some confidence, a place where they feel safe to talk about what they're feeling, you know, as as a as a girl and how they feel about you know seeing themselves belonging STEM, I think is super important. I worked for the Girl Scouts for a little bit, and it was wonderful to be able to come there and expose the girls to things that weren't traditional girl things. Because I came in and I said, you might not like me, but I want to shake this up. I'm tired of cookies, I'm tired of taking cooking classes. Let's get them in construction. We started working with Saxie and we did a construction program. We started working with robotics teams and getting them. We had a whole robotics expo, and it was amazing to see all these groups of nothing but girls building robots and being able to talk to how they built this robot, how they coded it, and to speak confidently. And you could just see the light in their eyes, how much they enjoyed it. But it's all about the exposure and and pushing them and then getting back to the parents and explaining to them how important these things are and how important it is to expose your kids, a boy or a girl, to all different areas because you just never know what's gonna spark something.

SPEAKER_03 23:04

So yeah you mentioned, and that that's we haven't necessarily talked about as much in this episode, about working with the parents and the families and the caregivers, right? Because because sometimes, not all the time, not many, but sometimes, like we have uh biases about what girls can and cannot do that sometimes are generational in nature. And so, you know, with every generation, what is that? Um uh Reverend Dad and Gamartha King says the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. And the answer that is like, but people have to be active in that bending, right? So, what's that active role in bending and working with our families and caregivers about helping them understand and make and perhaps shifting some of their concepts and experiences about what girls can and cannot do?

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Absolutely. So, something that I did start when I was at Detroit Public Schools was we started having family coding nights. Yeah, you know, coding. We started having family coding nights.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

Hold on, I got I gotta pause. Family coding nights. Is that is that the universal connection between all four of us at the table that at one point or another we were all employees of within Detroit? Now I'm DPS, I'm not all the max letters. Yeah, DPS C D. C D DC. But give a brief shout. So I I want to give a shout out to Pershing, the old Detroit Technology High School, Denby High School.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

I'll have to where I started and got my roots was Central High School on Tuxedo. I I mean that is the place that I will forever be. That was the place that I grew as an educator and learned and loved what teaching mathematics to high school students was. And I will forever be grateful for Central High School and Detroit Public Schools.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

Detroit made us.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Shout out to Derfee, yes.

SPEAKER_03 25:03

So yeah, so on that family and and and caregiver, you know, angle, what are some moves that so again, if I'm a teacher, I'm a building principal, uh, maybe even I'm in like an early childhood center director somewhere, um, what are some things that I could do with my families and caregivers about supporting their girls on STEM?

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Yeah, absolutely. So we were all about being able to provide things that were an easy lift, something that wasn't too hard to get them started, but to really just give them a taste of what their kids are going to be learning so that they can share that joy with them. So using things like Scratch Junior, which are black uh drag and drop coding. So you don't have to know syntax or anything like that. You just drag them, click them together, they're like puzzle pieces, and you can immediately see what your program does. Using things like code.org, which has a lot of curriculum that's already put together, hour of code, super easy. Parents can go on there, pick, you know, pick whatever uh it may it fits their interests, and they can immediately go in there and do an activity with their child. So we like to bring them together, have them do some coding together so that they can see that it's fun, they're not afraid of it, things that they can share with their um that their child. But also we had some times where we separated them. We had the kids go off and do some things and we talked a little bit deep more deeply with the parents about why is this important and what type of skills are your child gonna get out of this. And it's not about making your child be an engineer, but just making them able to be successful in technology in in 2025, right? So these skills that they're learning will apply to any area.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Yeah, yeah. So I am gonna bring us back to a part of our episode that we call hot takes, where Jay, Steven, and I share an idea that might be out there, might be best practiced. A little spicy, a little sizzle. Um, but just really getting our educators, our listeners to think about an idea that might spark something that causes them to think differently, do differently, implement something differently in their classroom. And then we always leave our last hot take for our special guest. So I'll go ahead and kick us off with the first hot take. This way I know, this way I know my hot take won't be taken by my other two esteemed colleagues. Um, but something that like has really been connecting and resonating with me. And Jay, you started us off this episode, was really making me think about like maybe we just have like a marketing issue in STEM. Like maybe what people think science, technology, engineering, and math is feel so off-putting or so out there or so impossible. And what we really need to be doing is stop isolating STEM from the rest of the learning experiences and instead like show that they are are in this beautiful design space really melded together. And, you know, going back to that stat I shared, while women represent 29% of AP test takers, they represent 79% of the takers in AP art and design. And so there's something about the representation of women in the humanities. And I wonder what it could look like to really combine biology with fashion, right? These like areas that might come together in this really like beautiful way, or like consider telling a data story that brings together some aspects of journalism in a way that feels connected and real world and relevant, that connect these ideas, going back to what you said, Janita, about asking the kids like, what are you interested in? And how do we show them that science, technology, engineering aren't separate, but all of those skill sets that we want kids to developing are infused within those areas of interest that they have.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

I don't want to go after Kenny.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

I'll go. I'll answer this on the other thing. I was gonna say, Jane's just I'm just building up ideas that Jane. The mics are attached to the table, but she could just totally drop the mic. She could. Yeah, she could. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:03

It's also clear that we don't have production meetings before these because we don't really share our hot takes with one another. So we do not. We do not. This is a very authentic podcast. Oftentimes, oftentimes there's overlap. So um I I think I'm just gonna go carrying on this conversation we've been having and this thought that's been ringing in my head is that when it comes to a lot of these issues societally and in education, specifically with STEM, I think we don't need to approach this as far as like, well, what do we have, what what do girls have to do to find their way into STEM?

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:41

We don't have to fix our young ladies.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

No.

SPEAKER_04 29:45

We need to fix a system, right? It's and and that is true, that is a true statement in across a lot of different ways. It's the system that needs to be fixed in order to open these spaces for our young ladies to feel like they belong in these in these spaces. And that starts by us as adults and uh us as educators. And these conversations are happening inside of our schools. And I'm so proud that a lot of teachers, especially at the elementary level, are really thinking about ways in which they position their science curriculum in in the in in positionality to their to English language arts and and reading and math, that there's intersections here to open this up to all of our students. Because if we do and we open the door, this is about creativity, like we said earlier. It's about leadership skills that we're teaching our young ladies, and and and young ladies are gonna take that baton and they're gonna run with it. They're gonna become leaders in this field. And so I guess is that maybe what we're afraid of in society? Is that kind of what you're doing? I was gonna take a battery spicy. Are you Steven? Are you are you afraid of our young girls growing up to be leaders? I'm not afraid. I have a dog. I know, right? You guys are definitely not afraid. So I get that's like the question we're at. Like, let's stop trying to fix girls and start saying, like, we're trying to create spaces where girls have opportunities to grow into leaders. And if we feel that women and girls can lead in society, well, then you better back that train up and we start that practice in kindergarten, in first grade, by making sure that opportunities that they have the opportunities to feel like they belong in order to grow and develop into the leaders we know that they can be. And STEM is a pathway to leadership. That's what it is. Leading in this world, this current world that we live in.

SPEAKER_03 31:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:39

That's my hot take.

SPEAKER_03 31:40

I don't want to go after Jay or Katie. Not now, I'm done. Let's go. Yeah, Stephen's got no hot take. Well, well, I actually want to package the two of those that uh that you you all mentioned. And before on the podcast, teaching tomorrow, um, I have mentioned that I really think we need to think about making education for young people an experience rich sort of curricular rather than for example, like just purely like a text or activity focused thing. I think sometimes we think too much about like you're on the computer doing this or on the textbooks reading and doing that. And of course, I'm an English teacher, so I love to read. But I think about well, what are the experiences like going out into the real world, seeing a thing, touching the thing, smelling it, what what it what all of this taking all the data with all of our senses. You know, if I'm a young person, do I remember lesson 1.3 on Tuesday, March, da-da-da-da-da. No, no, I'm probably not, but I am gonna remember that really cool field trip or that experience or that experiment that I took that just lit up fire in me. So I think um, in order to uh raise the stakes of having girls in STEM, we really need to think about what are the experiences that every single girl, not just the girls that happen to show up for the after-school clubs, because there's an equity issue with there too, but really thinking about all the girls and eliminating those barriers to increase the experiences that they have in STEM. So going to a plant or a factory or a place of business, seeing people like she needed when she was in the private sector, right? Her doing her thing. Like we need people to see that because it's uh because you don't know what you don't know. Um, so that exposure through experiences. But then, Jay, to your point, um, and now that's got me thinking, well, what are we exposing them to? Right? Are we exposing them to a male-centric and a male-dominated uh culture? And they and we do give them an experience, they're like, Well, I don't really want to do that. So we also simultaneously have got to reinvent or re-reposition those spaces so that when we do expose our girls to those opportunities, that they see that, oh yeah, this is for me and this is where I belong because I already am there. And so by the time they get older, we've built a sense of normalcy in them. Like, yeah, I'm going to go to school for coding or to get a PhD in computer engineering, or I'm going to become a mathematics education consultant at a regional education service agency. Whatever. Whatever that happens to be. So, so making that experience rich educational environment, but then also reframing what those experiences are so that they are decentralized from a male-dominant culture.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Yeah. Well, and I think too, like if you ask people who say, like, I'm not a math person, they're describing experiences mostly in school, in which they felt like barriers were put up or their experience was so off-putting or negating to seeing themselves as being able to move beyond that gate that they feel like was put up. And so I think what you're saying is you're saying like those experiences might exist, unfortunately, still in schools for boys and girls. And so, how do we also create these other experiences that such that when you feel like you're in a space where a wall or a barrier has come up, you've got these other ones to fall back on to say that like this might what be what math feels like now, but it isn't what math is. It isn't what science is. And I've been able to see that and dream it and be that because of the experiences that have been provided.

SPEAKER_03 35:36

Well, we give the last word to our esteemed and and and honored guest.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 35:42

Miss Cena Director.

unknown 35:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:43

Bring it home. Bring it home. Bring it home.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

Honestly, I mean, you you all have had some great ideas. I'm just, my mind's been turning as you've been speaking, but just thinking of kind of tying all those things together, what especially stuck out to me is about the experiences. We want to make sure that they come out of school with positive experiences to remember to move forward, right? So putting them in spaces where they do feel included and they're getting those good experiences, one main thing is through mentorship, right? So we've had girls working with like the Society of Women Engineers. We've had a bunch of women engineers come over from Ford, or they go over to Rocket Mortgage, and they get to work with people. So putting them with engineers, with women engineers that they can see in their element doing these things, it helps them to see, oh, you know, she's doing it. She kind of looks like me. Maybe I can do that one day. So making sure that they have these positive experiences that stick in their mind that continues to help them to build their confidence and be able to move forward. Just even thinking about I have a cousin who's an engineer. She's been an engineer for 30 years. Her daughter's now in her second year of college, but she's been taking engineering classes since she was in kindergarten. So she's never been afraid. She's never known anything else. For her, it's just, oh, this is fun. And I think that's the big thing. Fun. Make sure they understand how fun it is.

SPEAKER_03 37:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love all of what you said. I'm with the fun agenda.

SPEAKER_03 37:09

Well, speaking of fun, Jay, you're gonna tell us about the the fun of this podcast and why people should like, share, and follow it, right?

SPEAKER_04 37:18

Yeah, I mean, this has been uh really uh a really great conversation. A huge thank you to our esteemed guests. Thank you. Uh thank you so much for uh coming on and uh thank you to all of the listeners. Uh you guys keep uh hitting that like button, you keep accessing us, our numbers are going up so much so much so that we are gonna keep this thing going. We're just gonna keep going with another episode. Uh that episode is going to be an exciting episode. A very exciting episode. A very exciting episode. Uh, I will fully admit, I don't have the PowerPoint up in front of me that actually says what our next episode is. Uh so we will do a better job. We will all be surprised. Uh so as we uh plan this next great reveal for our next episode, please don't forget to follow or subscribe to Teaching Tomorrow wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a rating or comment. It helps other educators find these conversations. And if you liked what you heard, uh share this episode with a colleague uh so they can uh also like what they hear. Until next time, uh keep teaching, keep learning, and keep building the tomorrow your students can believe in because here at Teaching Tomorrow, we believe in you.

SPEAKER_03 38:32

We believe in you.

SPEAKER_04 38:33

And a shout out to all of our young ladies in the elementary schools learning.

SPEAKER_03 38:39

We're ones that are out there that will do it.

SPEAKER_04 38:42

Yeah. All right, we'll see you next time on Teaching Tomorrow. Have a great evening, morning, afternoon.

SPEAKER_03 38:49

All of the above.

SPEAKER_04 38:50

All of the above. See ya. Bye bye.

In this episode, Jill Gumz, High School Math Coach with Rochester Community Schools, explores what effective differentiation can look like in secondary classrooms. She shares insights on why it’s both challenging and essential, how collaboration and co-teaching support diverse learners, and what it takes to create classroom systems that help every student succeed.

SPEAKER_05 0:15

All right, good morning, good afternoon, or good evening. Wherever you happen to be listening to us, you have reached the Teaching Tomorrow Podcast with Jay, Katie, and Stephen. I am one of your many, or not many, like three hosts. It's only three. Steven. Triad Tree. Our triad trio of hosts. I'll let my other hosts introduce themselves.

SPEAKER_04 0:38

I am Jay Hafner, Oakland Schools Literacy Consultant. Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Yeah, so excited. Katie Morrison, math consultant with Oakland Schools.

SPEAKER_05 0:47

And so we are glad that you are joining us today for a very interesting topic that I'm very interested to talk to our guest about, we'll bring it here in a moment. But today's episode: what could differentiation look like in a secondary classroom? What could differentiation say that five times? What could differentiation look like in a secondary classroom? So I'll say for me, uh as a former high school English teacher, this is the thing, right? Like, how do you meet all of these needs? And I got three letters for you. I DK. I don't know. I have I have no idea. I have tried many, many different things. I don't have like one particular answer. I am very interested in talking to our guests about her perspective, which we'll bring her in a moment. Um, but in for me, in my practice, even what I recommend to others, this will be a shocker for those who knows me, to use data to inform what that differentiation might look like. Now, the first thing I gotta clarify when folks say, when I say use data, folks sometimes in their head translate that to like test scores, like SAT and MSTEP. And I'm like, well, at the classroom level, that's not necessarily the first data piece I think about. That's one of many, but I'm really thinking about information that I've gleaned through the formative assessment process. So thinking about engineering really great rich discussion tasks in the room and listening for key words from students or student groups that then enable me to shift learning in a certain direction based upon what the kids say. So I liken you know the formative assessment process to like a dance, you know, with your partner like a waltz. You're kind of listening to the rhythm of the music, you're following your partner's rhythm. And so a really good dance in the classroom uh works like that versus a non-example. I'm just plugging and playing with the lesson plan, whatever's on the paper, we're just we're steaming forward until the end of second hour. So I that's what differentiation looks like to me. But Jay, yeah, what about you?

SPEAKER_04 3:01

Yeah, I think uh I I like what you teach about. Like our own English brothers from another mother. Like liking music, liking the dance motif uh that we have here. Uh differentiation is is important. Um, I think you had brought up differentiation and uh formative assessment. So say different formative differentiation, say that 10 times let's go 10 times on that and we might be able to uh to unpack something here. But uh yeah, there's a lot that goes into like supporting teachers, so they especially at the secondary level. I know when I was a teacher and I had in some of my classrooms 34, 35 kids thinking I had to like develop 35 different individual lesson plans.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

And well, and then multiply it by how many classes, right in a space times six, five, seven.

SPEAKER_04 3:52

And then you go home and still don't even know what that means. And then after all of that, within your day, you go home and people wonder why you're so tired and why I'm like napping all day on a Saturday. It's um it can be exhausting and we burn our teachers out. And that that's one of my primary concerns. It's like sort of twofold around the interventions that we're providing inside of the classroom. How do we provide that in the moment need for students right then and there? And how do we support teachers in a way to where they're not burned out by September 19th? Uh you know, and it's a long school year. So uh those are the things I think the dance that we're talking about, it is a dance. It's a dance through the school year to ensure that we're finding the resources, applying those resources to all the students, and that we're supporting our teachers in a really uh really effective way. And I I think we'll be able to unpack some of that today.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Yeah, I think that's why I'm so excited that we've got an amazing guest with us today, because I think she's really gonna speak to um the complexities that exist in secondary spaces, but it's also gonna take something that feels theoretical, right? So often when we talk about differentiation, there's these like huge things that feel like really challenging and too far. And, you know, I even think about like, you know, when we use terms like formative assessment and what does that actually mean? And so, you know, our guest is really gonna help us think about what's doable, practical, practical, and how can we think about our spaces and create spaces like that?

SPEAKER_05 5:24

So you mean after people listen to this episode, they could just check that box. Like I know I'm in a de differentiation point.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

I don't know if that, but what I am hopeful and I can't do it. Please continue to listen to the entire episode. Yes. And I think our guest is too, is like starting to think about what exists inside of our systems. What are some questions that I can ask myself? What are some ways that we can talk about this stuff as teachers to make it feel practical? So I don't even know because differentiation doesn't feel like a checkbox, if that's what they'll be able to do. Talk to me again. Um, but I do think that, you know, in the conversations that I've had with our guests, she's got some really great things to share with us. Well, I think you should go ahead and introduce it. Why don't I do that? So today we have the amazing Jill Gums, a high school instructional coach from Rochester Community Schools. Jill has been an educator in Rochester for 21 years, where she served as a math and English language arts teacher. So when we talk about unicorns and education, like Jill is a true unicorn. She might be that, yeah. She might be that. You guys representing the English face, me representing the math. Jill is able to bring them both together.

SPEAKER_03 6:33

Both hands.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Um, but what I think is so cool is that is not where Jill's journey in Rochester began. Jill actually graduated from Rochester Community Schools before working there as a teacher herself. Her instructional leadership includes curriculum, course development, leading professional learning, and creating systems of intervention at the course, building, and district level. So, Jill, thank you so much for watching. Be still my beating heart, Jill.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Well, thank you so much for inviting me today to talk about one of my favorite topics in teaching and learning is differentiation. And so I'm so humbled to be here and talk with you folks and talk about some tangible things that we can take back into our classroom.

SPEAKER_05 7:11

Real, real stuff.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Yeah. Yeah. So, Jill, I think like the question that I wanted to sort of pose, because I think you have this beautiful story to tell, um, is just like what was the problem that Rochester was trying to solve? And what were some of the things and solutions that you guys tried? And then where where did that journey sort of take you? If you can just sort of like walk us through that story.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

It's a beautiful story where problems really can be opportunities. And so we were really surprised at all the exciting things that come from starting with problem solving. Um, and so the problem for this particular uh story isn't unique to Rochester. I mean, it's that algebra one foundational class tends to be one of the most failed classes in our district. It was year after year the most failed class. And even with lots of different um models of intervention, we still were seeing that students who were identified for needing support were still not making progress. They still were failing. And so that was a huge problem. And um, my mentor and my curriculum director at the time had hired me and my brilliant uh counterpart, Julie Schmidt, who's the middle school math coach, and said, Can you look at this? And so we said, sure. Um from there, we started to talk to teachers. We said, we have this um brand new co-teaching model. We started years ago with sort of algebra-like kind of classes, extended classes, um, where really intervention was outsourced. It was like, okay, there's one or two teachers who will just take care of intervention. We'll just kind of move kids off level and we'll sort of house them here and do the best that we can. But that's burnout for teachers. Um you think teaching can sometimes feel like you're an island. And when you're an intervention teacher, it really can feel like burnout. Um, and because it's not all students identified as needing support, they have varied needs, and so you're differentiating at such an amount. So we also tried uh a math lab model at the high school, and I was a math lab teacher, and at the time I thought, yes, this is the best. I can really do some relational work. Um, but when we looked globally and reading some of the research from Dweck and Bohler, um, as well as just the just-in-time intervention stuff, we said, you know, our students who are in math lab are taking two math classes out of the six. And if they were in math lab six, seventh, and eighth, and ninth, that's four elective classes and maybe eight right elective classes that students are missing out on to try to get this extra support. And so we moved to an on-level support where it's co-teaching. We said we have a team teaching as a model where we have a special education teacher and a math teacher, and um that has worked a little bit in our system, but what do we do for students who are marked for intervention um but don't have an IEP? There's lots of other needs that exist out there, and so we tried putting two general-ed math teachers in the same classroom. And we learned by just doing that was also over COVID, so not a lot of training, not a lot of support. I was one of the first co-teachers in this model myself. And um we found out that there was some success, and also the results varied because our systemic supports weren't really there yet. We didn't have a lot of training for teachers. Um, co-teachers didn't have the same prep hours, things like that. Um, and so the next year I was um in this new role as the district high school math coach, and again with my partner, we said, what can we do to support this model before we can actually evaluate if it's working or not? So we needed some things. We needed to create learning and opportunity for teachers to come together and learn, and also have time, time to collaborate, time to um to do some things where we can build risk-taking tolerance. And um we also had to look at some systemic things, work with our admin teams, work with counselors, um, getting teachers to have the same prep hour so that they could talk. And then we could get down really into the fun work of a specific classroom. So we needed to, we created this co-teaching cohort um and it was very important to do at 612. We really wanted some coherence, and um, what we then went from was having one teacher be the interventionist in each building to now six teachers might be co-teaching, and so that's half of our math department at each of our three buildings. And so really we started with the identity shift of all math teachers are interventionists.

SPEAKER_05 11:50

Say that one more time. That's a long time.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

All math teachers are interventionists, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:54

Come on, talk to them again.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

And so um that identity shift was really powerful. And our um teachers were amazing and in it because now we were gonna say, let's let's see what do we want to learn? What do you feel like we need? And the number one thing was time. So we started doing um this idea of quarterly sort of cohort group meetings, and we asked, What do you want to learn? And we sent a small team to Oakland Schools and uh the secondary intervention math series. And um, so that team would come back and share some of the strategies, the differentiation strategies, cognitive science things, and we would pilot things together. We'd say as a team, okay, let's let's give it a try. Um so we really worked as a cohort to create a model, not just two teachers together, but what should this look like? What should intervention actually look like? And not just intervention, but enrichment because in our co-teaching classes, one third of the students are marked for intervention, and two-thirds are just randomly placed. And so we have this wonderful classroom of on-level, but you have two teachers to not just provide um support for a small group of students, but two teachers working together to really support all students for whatever they need. And then the beautiful thing was we saw that teachers were taking some of the strategies and things that they were doing in the class and sort of scaling it to their non-co-taught classes, their singleton classes, single-taught classes. Um, and so we've just seen this amazing growth of excitement, of efficacy. And I really um think that co-teaching, our to our surprise, not only really impacted our student achievement, but also served as a professional development model that we didn't expect along the way.

SPEAKER_04 13:41

Yeah. So I want to I want to talk a little bit more about that professional development model and sort of drill, drill down into that. And I think you're bringing up a really important point that intervention is a team, it's a team sport, right? We it's it's a collective identity that we all have to have in our teaching practice. And then I think the way you can help shape that identity is through some real targeted professional learning. So I was gonna sort of ask: what are some of the early professional learning moves that you guys did within your system that really helped push that identity that uh intervention is not a solo act that we're doing in our own classrooms, that it's this team sport. How did you get there?

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Well, when we moved as the cohort, we said we're gonna build sort of collective capacity across the district. So we got time where we all would be in the same room. And we said we wanted shared ownership of building a model. And so having us start as a visionary sort of step together, we were really building that model collectively. And so there's sort of four pillars that the group came up with. The first pillar was um sort of the co-planning and co-implementation and co-reflection. And so that's a lot of work in partnership parity. Um, and then really utilizing uh like Marilyn Friend has the six co-teaching models. So, how do you maximize differentiation, not just having two teachers teach, but with parallel um teaching or station circuits, or um sometimes it's one teach, one target differentiate. So utilizing those to maximize differentiation. So we started with that and saying we're not really islands, we really are partners. So it was building the capacity and teamwork that we're in this together. So already we're in it together and there's teamwork around it. Um then we said we wanted to work on access and engagement. So the idea is that we are trying to really maximize the tier one strategies. So start with rigorous tier one.

SPEAKER_05 15:49

One more time.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

Tier one.

SPEAKER_05 15:50

Not tier two. We are not gonna start at tier two. Oh, and we're gonna get to tier two and three, but she just said her lips to the microphone's ears, tier one. Okay, please continue. I'm sorry. I got excited.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

And then I sometimes like to use the term tier one point five. And so that's kind of what we talked about in our co-teaching model as well, is that we really wanted to amplify tier one supports and really think about well, sometimes there's 1.5. So before we are outsourcing to something else, we really want to do what we can to keep kids in that sort of maximized tier one setting.

SPEAKER_05 16:25

I want to spend a lot more time with Jill.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

I know, it's actually brilliant.

SPEAKER_05 16:29

This is this is brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

I think it's the unicorn brain of having both sort of like humanity and then also like the STEM side.

SPEAKER_05 16:36

Well, one of the things that you said, you had me at this point. Yeah, I mean, you had me at hello. But at this point, um, when you talked about, you know, getting this task is going to the teachers first. And I think if if in for my a lot of my leaders out there that are looking for solutions for their staff, you know, do I want you to call me at Oakland Schools? Yeah, sure. You know, email. I I love this stuff. But I love how you really anchored a lot of your way forward on listening to the needs and assets of your own staff. And so now I'm wondering like, what are some of those staff assets that we want to identify to build on? What what did you see that was working well with your team that you expanded to other or other practices throughout the building?

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Yeah, well, it was that collective capacity. I used that John Hattie model, right? That collective teacher self-efficacy. And so we um did like again, we looked at those models and each of our professional developments um that we had in those quarterlies were based off of one of those domains, like the co-teaching, the access um and engagement. Then we also had re-engagement and growth opportunities that was really important, and then differentiating for like specific needs. And so what was neat is that as a goal, we would kind of learn about something, and then we would, and this is something that's also really important to me when when I'm planning professional development for teachers, half of it is uh shared learning and dialogue and processing, and half of it is work time, structured co-planning implementation time. That's really important.

SPEAKER_04 18:16

Yeah, because that's the time, right? That time aspect you we talk about is like, where do I have the time to be able to do this work in a co-teaching space in order to differentiate to all these two? Where does the time building that time in intentionally into the professional learning? You're seeing impact from that.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Yeah, and really being hands-off and kind of letting them trusting them like yes, and because they the um I think Carolyn McGander is uh a mentor of mine, and she always says sometimes the smartest thing in the room is the room. And so it's this shared co-planning time, though, where um it's the groups co-planning with their partner, but also together. So when you're talking about assets and staff, we did teacher labs. So we have three high schools, there's four middle schools, and so um it was really important, 612, that we did teacher labs, and it was based off of something we would try.

SPEAKER_05 19:10

And I can I apologize there for a moment for our audience who doesn't know what a teacher lab is. What is a teacher lab?

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Yeah, so the way that we run them in in Rochester um was that uh we will get together and it's really about our own learning. So when we're visiting, it's uh like for this particular cohort, the co-teaching cohort. We would meet at a building and we would do some shared learning. Then we would go. Um, we have some norms that we've set up. Um we've we've worked with open schools and supporting some of those that norm work.

SPEAKER_05 19:42

Shout out to open schools.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Yeah, I will all day because you guys have really supported uh our work. And um so we'll go in and it's really about our learning. We expect that we will take something away, and it's looking at student learning. So a lot of times it was rooted in this the the math practices. Um what are students doing? And from there, we then um maybe it's maybe it's 15 minutes, 20 minutes for us. It might have been around the domain that we were specifically working on. We would come back and we reflect, we get to hear what the teachers were hoping to do. How did it go compared to how you thought it would go? And um at the same time, we're all trying the same things because it was our collective group goal to try something, and so we're all learning kind of together. Um it was also great because we've we've done a lot of work with a lot of neighboring districts, and so doing teacher labs with people that we don't see every day but are in the same kind of um experiences, like with Oxford and Birmingham and Clarkson and like Orion. Um I don't know if I can if I can say all that, but they're just there are friends that are open county friends. I was gonna say in Open County, like there's so many wonderful partnerships that we've developed, and so we we've hosted labs, we've gone there, and working on co-teaching is one thing in particular. And so we're continuously trying to make our practice public, and it's not as scary to try stuff. And so um so anyway, so it's through those teacher labs that you sometimes when you see it, it makes you think, Oh, I didn't think I could run a station like that, but now I have a couple ideas. Maybe I can't do it exactly that way, but I wanted to do that, and so um but that's also been helpful when we think about when we're in co-teaching and when there's two of us, what do we do when we're not co-teaching? And we still want to provide the same kind of experiences in our other classes, and so how do you scale that sort of differently? And um, and so again, teacher labs have been fun to see it taught together, and then what about the next algebra class that doesn't have two teachers? How did that teacher still do a lot of the same things in there, but now as a single taught class?

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Yeah, yeah. Jill, I think that was the question I was gonna ask. You know, I want so many of our listeners are teachers who might be saying, Well, I don't have a co-teacher. Right. So how do I differentiate? Um, and I think there are a lot of things that you've said. Um, and I'm wondering if there are some specific things that you notice that teachers that were working really well in these co-taught classrooms, but were able to really nicely translate to their single classes that all of our listeners might be able to say, Oh, that's something I I could think more about or I could try.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

And so I think there's strategies and there's also intentionality and planning. Yeah. So a lot of times we pace things like I'm gonna do this on this day, this on this day, this on this day. But the planning, um, we really focused on doing an RTI model within the classroom. So what is going to be that formative check and then the planning ahead of time? What will my students who don't get it do? What will my students who are on level do? And what will my students who need enrichment or extension do? And having folks that are also teaching similar classes to brainstorm together and develop those plans and then try them. It gives um sort of permission to try. And so I would say that that that's the first part planning ahead of the differentiating, knowing that there's going to be a tricky thing. So let's walk through what are the ways that will support students who don't get it and students who do get it. Um using space is really important. We have vertical whiteboards in all of our math classes, and so um it might be tricky. How do I do stations? Like, how do I support? So you might have some students who are working um on whiteboards at the desk, and they might be doing a different activity that's been sent to their Google Classroom, or you have posted here, and then you might have some students who are working on vertical whiteboards, and so you're still man you can still manage all of them, but it's still differentiated kind of activities and engagement. So it's really like the specific strategies we have think about access and engagement. So, you know, those three read strategies, info gaps, things like that that you can do. Um, but that re-engagement part is really um about after you've maximized sort of that initial access and engagement, it's really drilling down to okay, knowing ahead that some students will struggle and how do you build that within? So carving a day, saying, even though it's just me, I'm gonna plan a differentiation day. And so I don't feel stressed later when kids don't get it and I don't have time to do it. No, every unit I'm gonna make sure I have one or two just in there. And so that's where I would start if I'm thinking, how do I start differentiating on my own? Because it seems like it's so overwhelming. But if you just start by saying, I'm going to give myself a day and a day here, and so I I know that I will have the time and I don't have to be stressed out about it. And as I'm collecting that formative feedback, if I can't do um do it on the fly, at least I know on that day I'll be able to address it.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Yeah. So, Jill, we are so grateful for everything that you've shared, the story that you told, the journey you took us on. And we now are gonna go into a part of our podcast that we lovingly call Hot Takes, where we share, each one of us, something that might be like out of the box thinking, maybe pushes educators to really like think differently about this topic. Um, so we're each gonna share ours, and then we always leave our host with the final word. Um, and so Steven, you want to start? You want to kick us off with your hot dogs?

SPEAKER_05 25:23

Jill kind of took mine that was in my head. I know, so that's always the hard part with hot takes. Yes. Um, but this one's a little spicy. This one, this one might get me put on a pip.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

I love spicy hot takes.

SPEAKER_05 25:35

If my boss is listening, uh, you know, this is all for the glory of student uh learning. So when we take a look at professional development and like district-provided professional development, right? If you're a teacher out there, your district is providing X number of hours of that. And I am really interested in like the quality and the modality of learning. So I know in our tech age, um virtual learning and asynchronous learning through like modules and online system is a thing. Okay, I get that, not gonna fight that. But what Jill said earlier is just super resonating with me, and this was what I was thinking the whole time, particularly for something like differentiation at the classroom level, you have to see it. You have to really see it in action. So it's one thing to read about it. It's one thing to like read a rubric and reflect on your own practice, and another thing to maybe even see like a video of something, whatever. But you gotta be there, right? You gotta see it, you gotta take a whiff of the classroom. Hopefully, it's not a middle school classroom, but you gotta get you really gotta get a sense of like what are the instructional moves that the teacher is making, how are students responding to that? And you really gotta take in that data. And that type of professional learning, I think, can only happen through experiences like teacher labs or classroom visitations. So my spicy hot take is what if in those 30 hours, 30%, so roughly 10 hours of the professional learning that districts had to give every year. I'm not talking about a policy, I'm talking about just a practice, right? Try it out, were teacher lab experiences.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:19

Like what if we just made sure that every teacher in our building, if I'm building principal, every teacher is gonna get a minimum of 10 hours of classroom visitation and lab experiences so they can actually see what this weird theoretical concept looks like in practice with a person uh who has demonstrated capacity to show and lead others in that work.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

Yeah. So I feel like we're like shouting Carolyn McCanders out all over. But what I was gonna say is Carolyn says that the experience is so important, but where the real value and learning comes from is the reflection on that experience. And I think that that's exactly what you're saying too, right? Like the beauty of teacher labs isn't just the experience, but it's the the reflection time and the built-in time to say, like, how is what I'm seeing feel practical and relevant to to my classroom space.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

So socially with a group to be able to experience together, a small group, but then also independently like process it too, right? So you kind of what's the goal that you now have? What's the learning you now have moving forward?

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So my hot take. A little spicy, yeah. Come on, come on. Yeah, yeah. My hot take. So I was thinking, I was thinking back on when I was a classroom teacher and feeling like so often differentiation feels like one of the challenges is connected to content, right? When we talk about how students are coming in and some can't do this skill or some further removed from this skill. And it feels a lot like the content is the barrier. And I was wondering, and even as I was like talking to Jill and she's like really making me think about a lot of different things, was maybe it's the pressure of time and not so much the pressure of the content. And so, my hot take, and this is real spicy, because this would cause like schools to really restructure their systems, but like, what if it was less about the content and more about the time? And instead of saying students had to master this skill in six weeks, because that's what our unit is, what if the time fluidity that said you get as much time as you need to master the skill? And as a teacher, I'm here in this space to guide you through that process. And so students are going to be on this continuum of like where they are in their understanding of linear equations, but I've pre-planned for what that looks like when students don't have it yet, and when students have already mastered it. Um, and that would take a lot of like really thinking differently about our content and what we teach and our standards, and thinking of it as a much more like fluid structure for like really pacing instruction less around like the 180-day calendar and more around like what kids need in the moment.

SPEAKER_05 30:01

And it's like we should structure schools around students.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

Students. Oh, maybe I mean that doesn't seem so hot, but sometimes that really does seem hot. Yeah, say something. I know poor Jay always has to like lead us up. All right, Jay, what do you got? What do you got?

SPEAKER_04 30:17

Something a little more muted, a little more bland. But it yeah, but I you're you're right. Sometimes the hottest takes in education are often the things that are most obvious. And I think that's something we need to think about as educators is that the thing that feels like it's the biggest shift is actually the thing that brought us into this profession in the first place. And that's to service the needs of students and to be creative with the work that we do and to have opportunities. This is my hot take, leaning into what Jill was talking about. Opportunities and time to actually feel what it's like to co-plan with somebody. We talk about co-planning, it is a large system that needs to be implemented into a secondary space. That can be daunting. Sometimes we get benefits if we just have not a whole system, but an opportunity to just co-plan differentiated strategies. So when I walk into a classroom one time throughout the year with a colleague that we've co-planned one lesson that we teach together inside of a classroom that offers multi-levels of differentiation and opportunities to intervene there in the moment in a tier one setting. Just doing that once can be impactful to a teaching, uh, to teaching practice. Just one time, feeling what that's like. Then you can take some of those strategies you've developed and you realize, oh, I can do some of these differentiations on my own. I can plan some of these on my own. Maybe if we do it one time, all of us commit to one lesson in which we co-plan and deliver together. We can build a system in all of our schools that strengthens our tier one practice without necessarily having to feel that we have to take a tier, uh, a tier one coaching, uh, I'm sorry, co-teaching model that we have to implement right off the bat. Just start small. One lesson that Katie and I plan together to differentiate in my ELA classroom as a math teacher. Let's see what happens. Everybody commit to that.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

We're gonna hand you off the final hot take.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

The final countdown.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Well, I mean, I want to say, you know, like there's some specific things like you know, you talked about data, and there's like data to intervention moves protocols that are at really a micro level, like giving teachers some specifics that that can support them. But really, I'm gonna go from that micro to also the macro.

SPEAKER_03 32:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

How do we really want to support differentiation? It like back to the beginning. It's a team effort, it's an all hands on deck. So, what are we doing in our systems? Structures, do we give teachers who are teaching the same things the same prep hours so that they can? They that that structure is built in the day. Um, do we how do we build risk um excitement, right? Where we can try new things and permission to pilot. So let's try seeing something new. I don't want to see a polished lesson if I'm an administrator going in. I want to see you trying something new. And so what do we, what do we give voice to and value and excitement to in our macro level level? And that way teachers, when they're planning for differentiation, it's not all up to me. Right. It's okay, my team, we're gonna sit and talk about how are we gonna differentiate for this and this? What are some ideas that we can try? Um, and then see it, right? See in other places. So micro and macro, my hot take is all hands on deck. Yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_04 33:37

Oh my god, what a beautiful way that's the team, the team. The team, the team. All right, there shout out. Yeah, we just lost that. We just lost all our Michigan state. Yeah, they all just turn us off. Go blue.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Oh, it's connected to Football. Oh, well, I'm a Spartan, so I just want to. I didn't know what they were talking about either.

SPEAKER_05 33:57

Uh if you're no matter, I can't I don't know when we're releasing this, but when we're taping this, the Michigan versus Michigan State game is tomorrow, so we'll see who wins. But if you listen to this podcast, you're the winner because this has been such a treat to talk with Jill Gums from Rochester, uh, the mighty Rochester schools. I feel like we could talk to her for for hours and hours and hours. Maybe we'll bring her back differentiation part two.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Yeah. Well, anytime it's a pleasure to learn and listen to you folks and the that power of um all the listeners, they probably have so many great ideas too. And so hopefully they have some comments to share us.

SPEAKER_04 34:33

Yes, let us know. Leading us right in. So thank you, Jill. Again, really appreciate you uh being here. And uh guess what? We are successful enough that we are gonna have a next episode. Oh it's coming. We have another episode. We still don't have sponsors, but we do have a sponsor. No, no sponsors.

SPEAKER_05 34:52

No sponsors. Just to let people know this is free. We don't do this for profit, we do this for the love of teaching and teachers.

SPEAKER_04 34:58

Yeah, that's right. So join us next time on uh on our next exciting episode. We are going to be diving into a conversation. How do we make STEM a place where girls feel like they belong? Okay. Uh in the meantime, right? Isn't it? Can I be there for that one? Yeah, we you better be here. Everybody, it is a conversation.

SPEAKER_05 35:20

Everybody's in the number.

SPEAKER_04 35:23

You're you're yes, you're gonna be a part of it. Uh, in the meantime, before we get to this next exciting episode, please don't forget to follow or subscribe to Teaching Tomorrow wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a rating or comment. It does help other educators find these conversations. And if you liked what you heard, share this episode with a colleague who could use a little inspiration uh during this uh during this school year. Until next time, keep teaching, keep learning, and keep building the tomorrow your students can believe in because here at Teaching Tomorrow, we believe in you.

SPEAKER_05 35:59

Smash that like.

ELA teacher Peter Haun joins Jay, Katie, and Steven to explore how student ownership transforms learning. From AP Language writing projects to innovative uses of AI, Peter shares how giving students real responsibility builds stronger writers, deeper collaborators, and more confident leaders inside and outside the classroom.

SPEAKER_03 0:16

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, welcome to the Teaching Tomorrow Podcast with Jay, Katie, and Stephen. Good morning, good evening, good afternoon, wherever you happen to be watching. We are so glad that you are with us. We hope you're a teacher because this podcast is all about you helping you to inspire some really great ideas for your own class and practice. I will let my esteemed co-hosts introduce themselves.

SPEAKER_05 0:46

Hey, hey, Katie Morrison, Oakland School's Math Consultant. So excited to be here for our episode today.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

And Jay Hafner, Oakland School's Literacy Consultant, equally as excited to be here today.

SPEAKER_05 0:58

I don't know, I'm so excited about our guest.

SPEAKER_03 1:02

Yeah, I'm I mean, I'm excited about our guest. I mean, he's kind of a big deal.

SPEAKER_05 1:05

He's a big deal.

SPEAKER_03 1:06

He's kind of a big deal. We're gonna bring him on in a minute. Very, very special treat. Um, but this episode, we want to talk about like student agency, but like for real, for real. Not like, oh, we did a survey. Yeah, we did feedback and they said their favorite color was blue. So now everything's color blue.

SPEAKER_05 1:24

Like, no, or even worse, they said they don't like school, but we just kept doing the same stuff, anyways. I mean, come on. Like, have you seen the MyFi data?

SPEAKER_03 1:32

Year after year. Yeah. I mean, but we can do better, right? And we will do better here on the Teaching Tomorrow podcast. So our topic is how can the kids lead us in learning? Not should the kids lead us in learning, because they should, right? Right. We're all agreeing that's what we're here for, right? We want to dig into the how. Like, how can kids lead us in learning? So before we bring on our steamed guests, uh Jay, let me kick it to you, brother. Like, what are some of your ideas? Like, how can kids lead us in learning?

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Yeah, I mean, I I think first I want to elevate the idea that there is exciting learning happening in classrooms all over Oakland County. And I think one of the things that we're trying to do uh in this particular episode, but with this podcast in general, is to provide a little bit of a platform to elevate all of the really good, exciting things that are that are going on. Um, and the kids are at the forefront of the work. Uh, they are the ones who inspire us to come to work every single day. I know as a teacher, uh early in my career, I I made a decision that I wanted to be a teacher because I didn't want to spend my working hours working with adults. I thought that I could make a bigger difference working with feelings. Well, you know what? Things change over time, and now I find myself working uh with adults. And I still have a smile on my face about that. But let us not forget why many of us get into this profession to begin with. It's because we know we can make a difference in the lives of kids. Are we the ones as adults that have to force the difference upon kids? Or can we as adults create learning opportunities and spaces for the students to take hold of their learning and and turn it into something that they're interested in that helps grow and develop uh in the direction that they want us uh that they want to lead? I think we can do that, and I think we are doing that in a lot of spaces. We just need to create those platforms to celebrate those stories and hear more about that type of learning.

unknown 3:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

Well, let's hear more about that type of learning from Katie.

SPEAKER_03 3:36

Katie, what do you say?

SPEAKER_05 3:37

Yeah. I mean, I think like I'll speak for myself. I think a lot of times we as teachers feel like we have to be the experts, right? Teachers, principals, school leaders, administrators. Like we have this knowledge and this expertise. And even when we don't know all the things, we feel like we have to know all the things. Like that's this persona of like being a teacher. And so when I hear this question, how can the kids lead us? I almost think of it as like this liberation from that, right? Like, look at you on a liberation.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

That is the second podcast episode that Katie has talked about liberation.

SPEAKER_05 4:13

Low key? Oh, that feels good. Yeah, revolution. I don't know. Like when I heard this question, I was like, this idea if we can really really do this right, if we can really lean into this, build on this idea that the kids have the knowledge and the expertise in the world that like already exists and that is like formulating for them. Um, that feels really good as an educator to say, wait, I don't have to be the expert in this.

SPEAKER_03 4:35

I don't have to know everything.

SPEAKER_05 4:36

I don't have to know anything. Principles, I don't have to know all the things.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

And don't have to do all the work. Think of all the things that kids are on the forefront of that they they're learning and knowing and discovering things before we as adults are. And sometimes we get in, you know, sometimes that's intimidating. It can be intimidating as a parent when I see my kids learning things that I'm that are ahead of where I am. Um, and I think it can be equally as intimidating as a teacher because we want to have a little bit of control over our environments, but if we can liberate ourselves from maybe if liberate feels like documentary, maybe it's freeing.

SPEAKER_05 5:15

Free and free. No, we're here. This is freedom here at the Teaching Tomorrow podcast. We like freedom to say the kids got a lot of things to share with us.

SPEAKER_03 5:24

Yeah, let's give them an opportunity to share those things with us. Well, speaking of share with us, Jay, you want to introduce our esteemed vaunted guests, vaunted guest.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

Have you ever been Peter? Have you ever been called? I don't know what that is.

SPEAKER_04 5:40

I don't know what that is.

SPEAKER_03 5:41

We both are. We all three of us. It's made up. Well, you know what?

SPEAKER_00 5:45

We made up all we have agency, right? We made up words. Steven just taught me something. That's right. Again, again in my life.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Yes, again in your life. The the sage wisdom of Stephen. No, it's pepper over there.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

It's Pete. Pete. I learned a lot from this guy in our time again. We who is PJ?

SPEAKER_02 6:04

So who is Pete? We are joined here today by the vaunted Peter Hahn. Uh Peter is an English language arts teacher who splits his time between Oak Park High School and CASA. For those of you that might not be familiar with CASA, it's the Center for Advanced Studies and the Arts. Uh at CASA, Peter teaches AP language and composition. Uh, and he has been working in uh an innovative project that combines advanced writing instruction with the use of AI. Uh, and the goal has been twofold. It helps students develop the skills necessary to succeed on the AP language analysis essay, which is important. You know, we're aiming for, you know, passing, you want the kids to pass the exam. Uh, but we're also building your easeworking to build their fluency with AI uh as a real world tool. Uh, through this work, uh, Pete students, you know, they're not just learning how to write, they're learning how to make choices, take ownership of their growth. I think when you take ownership of your growth as a high school student, you start to learn how to make uh appropriate choices and you discover where you're heading and where you want to head. Uh, and he's helping kids collaborate with you with each other, both in written and digital spaces. Uh so with uh no further delay, Peter, vaunted as you are, welcome to the show. We are excited to dig into this.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

And excuse me, from the Oxford Dictionary Praised or boasted about. Oh boasted about especially in an excessive way.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

A little bit too much. Maybe that's hyperbolic. I don't know, but I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

We we should we should add as we do with every episode, we are not sponsored by the Oxford English Dictionary in any way. We we are yeah, we are they are not an official sponsor of the show, but thank you for uh Steven for running down that definition. Welcome to the show, Pete. How are you doing so much?

SPEAKER_00 8:00

I am doing well, thank you. Yeah, all right.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

So this episode is all about students uh leading in their own learning. Walk us through how you go about creating some of these conditions in your classroom, especially uh at CASA, uh, to really help put these kids in in charge of their growth.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

So apart from the AI. Um so I'm a big proponent for, first of all, a lot of writing. A lot. I mean, um you only get better at writing by writing. Um I mean, it's like any skill, you know, riding a bike. If you haven't ridden a bike in 20 years, you still know how to do it, but but it's rusty, right?

SPEAKER_04 8:38

But should you?

SPEAKER_00 8:40

So, but if you if you pick that bike back up, you you you get back up to hopping the curbs and popping wheelies, you know. So um in AP Lang's really interesting because it's essays that kids maybe have never written. And so we spend a lot of time writing. Um and and this is where it's a little confusing because uh and maybe some other teachers will disagree with my philosophy, but the test is on demand writing, we do on-demand writing. They don't do many outside of class, actually, and we don't revise many because it's one and done, which will I'll come back to the AI portion of that later. Um so so yeah, so we do a lot of writing. We look, we look at a lot of writing, we look at a lot of mentor good and bad samples of writing to try to see and pick up what we feel is a a good skill or a good thing to do and avoid the things that are are are negative or or not good. Um and so, and then I do a lot of collaboration, like at Casa, we have these kind of small common workspaces. I love putting kids in groups of two, three, four, whatever, sending them out in the hall to take a uh a look at a piece of writing and talk about it. I think I creep them out when I say, because every every time there's got to be one group staying in the room, and I get goosebumps, right? I really do when I hear the kids talking, and I just I'm just a fly on the wall, if you will, right? And I feel like sometimes they're they're awkward when I when I'm listening, but I'm like, you guys don't understand how good this conversation is, and I'm not doing anything but listening to what you have to say about that. Um, and and Katie, back to what um you were saying earlier about teachers afraid of like giving up that that control. I think it takes a while to get there. And I'm not saying I'm there yet. Um but when a kid says something that I never thought and I'm like, oh my God, you are not wrong. Like I can't say you're wrong. And that's the thing about I also teach lit at Casa now. So um you know, you get these texts and I say to the kids, I didn't write it, but but you know, I can look at things and figure things out, but if but if you see something and you can back it up with evidence and why you think that I can't say you're wrong. Yeah, I mean, I might not agree with your opinion on it, sure, but it's a valid opinion. Yeah, yeah. Um and I have a crazy can I give an example real quick? Yeah, please, yeah. So just yesterday, and this is a lit one, um, we were looking at the 2019 AP lit poetry prompt, and it's this poem called The Landlady. And it's really creepy about this woman who lets people in, but then she, while they're gone, they go, she goes through their rooms and drawers and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

And one of my kids, there's a poem, there's a poem about my mom. That's right. Yeah, like that's what it's like when you grow up, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Jay. And that's where the conversation went because this woman, in theory, is following everything as Katie comes and goes, as Jay, like, and one kid's like, well, it's kind of like she's a mother, right? And and worried when Jay comes home late and taking note of that and and that kind of thing. But then this one kid says to me, he's like, it was written in 1943. Could it be like the German or Russian government like bringing you in and then watching and taking note of everything? And I'm like, uh maybe not, but I see where you're going with it. Yeah, like you know what I mean. I'm like, yeah, I'm like, don't stop thinking that way, you know. Like once again, I don't see it that way, but I can't say that there's evidence that maybe it's not. I mean 1943, sure, there's a lot of things going on in the world that somebody could have written a poem that's allegorical, you know.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

Yeah, I mean that's that's the core of critical thinking, right? Is being able to apply knowledge that you're learning now in other areas, whether we see it that way or we don't see it that way. I think those are exciting moments that happen in the classroom for sure that really do give goosebumps and show us what our kids are capable of doing.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

And here's the thing, so many kids nowadays, and it's probably because of technology, are so afraid of being wrong. Yeah, like they are deathly afraid. And I try to lift that off them and say, I I will never be upset if you try something that doesn't go right. But I need you to try stuff. You need to try. Yeah, you gotta come to the board. We we do a lot of annotating on the board, right? We have the Promethean. So like I pull it up and I'm like, somebody's gonna come up and read and you know, write on and think aloud so others can hear what you're thinking, because I'm not the master of all the knowledge by any means. So um, and once again, I I find that that having them collaborate oftentimes is more powerful than just listening to me go on about a poem I've read 15 times, you know. So um those light bulb moments are fantastic for them too.

SPEAKER_03 13:22

The one thing you you you just said, and I'm just I'm totally vibing with is because I encountered this a lot in my time in the classroom, uh, and even as a father, of breaking through that I don't want to be wrong. And so sometimes there's a there's a a fear or hesitance to take a risk or to try something out new because well, I don't want to be wrong, so therefore I want to try, I won't try. Um how do you break through that? Like, how are you busting through that? Like, how are you helping kids or creating that environment where because we've said, oh, kids should take risks, da-da-da-da-da. But there's a lot of failure behind that risk, right? There's a lot of danger behind that risk. So, how do you navigate those tensions?

SPEAKER_00 14:06

So, so back to those little collaborative groups, oftentimes I'll be like, okay, every group's coming back in, and every group's talking in front of the room, and everyone in the group is talking. So there's that, I think, safety that Katie's with Jay and Steven in front of the room, that she's talked with a group and now she feels a little more empowered to say what she's feeling, even if it came from the group, which then means that next time, now that Katie's been in front in front of everyone looking at her, and she says something out of her mouth, she feels a little more confident next time, even if it's by herself, or maybe it's a pair next time. Like sometimes that takes a lot of work with kids. Yeah, um, certain kids, and you know, as teachers, like you got those kids that Jay's always got his hand up and always wants to go to the board and always and and I appreciate that eagerness too, but I also need to pull those kids out. So I think I feel like group work, and right now at the beginning, they get to pick theirs, then I'll do the whole like one, two, three, four, five, one, two, three, four, five, you know, and the five's gotta go out in the hall and the four stay here, you know. Um, where then they are forced to work with somebody they're not as comfortable with. Um, which once again is is is uncomfortable for a little bit. But these classes are like 20 kids. The interesting thing is is that they come from different schools, so they don't know each other.

SPEAKER_03 15:16

When they step in in my classroom, yeah, for for our listeners, explain what Casa is.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

So Casa's been around for like 50 years. It's a consortium school in South Oakland County, uh, made up of um Berkeley, Ferndale, Clausen, Oak Park, Madison, Lamphier, and Pontiac School Districts. It only operates in the afternoon. Most of the kids attend for two hours. And it was out of a need to pool resources for small districts back, you know, 50 years ago. Um, for instance, like Oak Park might not have enough kids in AP chemistry to uh, you know, to to pay a teacher. But but if you have three from here and five from there and six from there and two from there, then we can make it happen. So um so it's a consortium. Okay. So it brings all these kids from different schools together. And for some, they're looking for that new face or that new niche to fit in. And for other kids, it's just I need to take um some high-level club courses. I want to push myself, and my home school perhaps does not offer those things.

SPEAKER_03 16:16

So you're really pushing there, you're pushing that envelope.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Well, so there's like two different factions, if you ask me at Casa. I feel we have like 15 AP classes or something. Um and now we have some agreements with Lawrence Attack there that where kids can do some some computer stuff. Shout out to Lawrence Attack, yeah, for sure. Um, and get college credit for a computer class. I don't know enough about it. And then this year is the first year we actually have a teacher from College for Creative Studies coming, and the kids can take a uh a drawing class there and they can get college credit through CCS. Um so so there's these high-level ones, and then there's uh some really cool electives. Like um, one of the teachers um is a former science teacher from Hazel Park, and he teaches science electives like biology of food. And he talks about the science. Yeah, the science behind the food. It's not a cooking show. No, it is. So already this year they've made basil. I'm sorry, not basil. They've made pesto, they've made salsa, and they've pickled pickles, and they talk about the science behind what happens when you do those things, when you mix those things together and how the flavors change or breakdown or enzymes and things like that. So it's a really cool, and then there's yoga and dance and some of the other ones, Heroes and Villains, which is a cool kind of walks the line between social studies and and English, um, about like mythology and stuff, and modern mythology too. Percy Jackson, Harry Potter, stuff like that. So all interesting.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

I do think we should have an episode in which we bring folks on to pickle pickles and salsa. And I've got pickles and salsa. Yeah, have a whole food episode. Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

It's funny because I see kids walking, I'm like, you you like those pickles? Because I'll take them off your hands. Right? You you can eat that salsa? Like I'll take that with me. Yeah, like good homemade stuff. And I used to be next to that class and I'd walk in, I'm like, oh, they're making pickles today. I'm like, yes, nice, yeah. It's around the corner now.

SPEAKER_05 18:15

So yeah, yeah. Yeah. I feel like if we go back to the question about like how do we get the kids to lead us, I'm wondering like what role does relationships and trust play in like creating a space that allows the teacher, right, to feel comfortable and competent enough to cultivate that space. But then also for the students, right? Like towing this line of like I'm afraid to be wrong, or I don't know if I have something to say. Do you really trust me to to lead in this space? Like, what do you think what do you have to do?

SPEAKER_00 18:49

If you ask me relationships, if without relationships, it's not happening. Um I mean, you hear stories about kids who are like, oh, that teacher doesn't like me. Well, that that's bad on the teacher because a kid never no kid should think that that you don't like them, you know. Um and so it takes some time. And um, you know, I I do like some, you know, of course, get to know you things. I have this really cheesy thing that I do. I'm gonna tell you. Please, please. So can I wait? It's just between us. Every summer I get to go up to Lake Huron and all of our in the thumb and there's lots of rocks on the beach. And so I pick all these rocks and I take them in, and I'm like, you know what's interesting is Steven kind of looks like Jay, right? But he doesn't look like Jay. Just like this rock kind of looks like this rock, but it doesn't look like that rock. And I said, regardless of the rocks, there's three things I would say about these rocks. They're strong, they're beautiful, and they're unique. And then I have the kids come pick their rock. And it's a it's a it's a little test, if you will. I tell them They kind of made me cry, man. Oh, yeah. Try and hold it back. Anyway, and I tell them, put this in your backpack, and when you're not sure if you're strong, beautiful, or unique, take it out. But then the last week of school, I want to see that rock again. So it's also this like responsibility little thing. So I feel like maybe like things like that. Yeah, I think when it's something unique rather than just like a all about me thing and color this one, that color, I think um hits them a little differently if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Um and I feel like some of them are archies, some of them are like, oh, you see, you're cheesy, but some of them I think they need that. Right? They really, really need that to know that I think unique is cool and and you're still strong and you're still beautiful, even if you don't look like the prettiest rock, you are all those things still. So anyway, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_05 20:38

So this is reminding me of a colleague of ours who also collects rocks for her disciplinary literacy kickoff. And I'm like, look at all these people going around collecting rocks, making meaning of the rocks that they collect.

SPEAKER_02 20:48

You can find you can learn a lot from a rock.

SPEAKER_05 20:51

I mean, yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

So how about this? I even have a kid in K Lang. He's like, Mr. Han, I wrote something for you about the rocks.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

That's great. Yeah, on his own. He just brought it to me and wrote something about the rocks. So yeah. So I feel yes, back to your question, Katie. I it without relationship, I mean, nothing happens if you ask me. So yeah, that's paramount. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

Yeah, and it's the relationship that provides the the builds the safety.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Sure, absolutely. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Builds that safety, that confidence for kids. So yeah, so I'm curious uh to let's uh get in while while we have a little bit of time here. I want you to sort of walk us through and explain uh the the project you you did last year, you're doing a little bit this year, uh integrating AI into uh the student experience here. And you know, just to plug a few episodes ago, we had our AI episode with uh Dr. Andrea Zellner. Uh so we had we've had a conversation. Feel free to go into our back catalog and find that episode and listen to it again. Another shameless plug.

SPEAKER_05 21:54

Yeah, I gotta listen to it again. Yeah, listen to it again again. Double like.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

Double like. Yes, double like. So let's uh let's get into that, Pete. Tell us a little bit about what you're doing with that uh and and how the kids are uh either embracing or pushing back against uh the use of AI.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Um so I know Andrea from many, many years ago. And so um I'm one of those philosophies of if it's really good work, I I want to be part of it. Um and so she had some sort of study last year, funded, I don't know by who, and she was looking for teachers, um really, I think just secondary English teachers to use AI somehow in the classroom. Um and of course I scooped that up because I wanted I, as I said to the kids, I said AI's not going anywhere, it's just gonna be there more and more every single day. Um maybe we should figure it out. I'm a little scared of it. Um I I don't know what you guys feel about it. Um, but um I I decided that when we were doing our our synthesis essay work that we would take um and and it's a platform called Writing Partners, um, and that Andrea has a relationship with the man who created it. Um and so I said to the kids, I said, this is kind of what I'm thinking. Um how about if we take one of our essays and we upload it and we have the computer or the the program, the bot, whatever you want to say, um, help us with our commentary. Because to me, that's always the hardest. I don't care which essay it is. Kids can come up with a thesis, what they want to say, kids can come up with evidence, it's saying what they want to say. The the thesis is these are the three points I want to make, or these two points or four points or whatever. But the actual saying of it is the hardest for them. So and they struggle with it. And I say, You're not gonna be perfect at it now. We gotta do this a bunch of times, right? So then I'm like, and and the guy helped me. He he he said, Um, well, share the rubric with me. So he somehow took and bodified the AP bodify, yes, right. And it was only the middle section because there's a thesis score, there's this evidence and commentary score, and sophistication. And we were only focusing on the kids' commentary. And so I'm like, Well, let's upload them up there, and you got to start asking the questions. And there was a certain level of frustration because the kids thought, oh, I would just say, uh, what do you think of my essay? Or or what score would you give my essay? But it's not that easy. And it's the nuanced language of asking a bot something that um that you really want. And so there was a a certain level of kids are like, I'm not getting the right answer. And I'm like, Well, are you do you know the right answer that you're looking for? Like, maybe you need to refine your question. And and it's really interesting because the way uh the feedback would come, it would come with suggestions and then it would ask you a question, looking for you to dive back in some more. Um and so um it was a really interesting take because as I told the kids, we're not revising. Right. I want you to take whatever just happened, and next time we write, you think about that. You keep that in your fore in the forefront of your mind and consider doing that. And and with any feedback, and I pulled up Hattie says the effects I'm 0.75 to 0.79.

SPEAKER_05 25:05

So feedback is dropping the statistics on us in this episode.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

So so anyway, so feedback fast and and um direct and in student-friendly language is key. And um so but I what I what I said is though whenever I give you feedback, you could take it or leave it. It's still your essay. You might say, Oh, Han doesn't know what he's talking about, or I don't like what he said. You could do the same thing with the computer, right? Oh, that's interesting. And I'm like, you're not just taking you you're thinking about making edits, and no one would ever criticize you for having your teacher read your paper and give you feedback, or your classmate, or your mom, or anyone. So like I just see this as another level of feedback that's really fast, really fast. Um because if I've got 60 kids in AP classes and I give them all an an essay, that's taking me a week or so to get that feedback to them. Whereas we can do this every once in a while, you get feedback, you know, super fast.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Yeah, so then ultimately what they're learning is they're they're learning how to refine as a process that though they can't, it's even disassociated from their essay, it's an it's a process that they can use outside of the classroom. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 26:14

But they're also learning like how to ask good questions. Right, yes, which is another skill. I mean, in this like world of AI, right, which is not going away. We gotta like learn how to use it and ask it the questions that we want the answers for. Um, but also just like human-to-human connection and conversation for critical thinking.

SPEAKER_03 26:30

Well, speaking of questions that we want the answers for, we're gonna transition to a new type of answer in our segment of our show we call hot takes. We're gonna get hot, hot, wild, and crazy on the topic of having kids lead us here as we begin to wind down this part of the show with our very good friend and colleague Peter Hahn. I'll kick us off with our hot take, but but Pete, you were really kind of speaking to this, like letting go, like letting go of the control and really inviting. Now you violate this time, right? Oh man, King Disney, Queen Disney coming at me. This is not sponsored by Disney. Um, but really inviting the kids to be co-designers, co-authors, co-engineers of the educational experience. Sometimes we feel like we've got to be in control. We've got to let that go. Let go and let the kids. Jay, what's your hot take?

SPEAKER_02 27:21

Yeah, uh, Pete, you said it, feedback. That's my hot take. In what ways can we improve and increase the amount of feedback that we're giving students on the work they're doing? AI can be a thought partner and a co-pilot in the feedback process. Doesn't necessarily mean it's doing the work for them, doesn't necessarily mean that they're plagiarizing where we're, you know, right from AI. But if we position AI as a thought partner in feedback, I mean, let's be real. We've all been teachers. How many times have we just had papers piling up around us because we can't find the time to give feedback? Right. But it is, we got to give feedback to the kids. So I wanna I wanna reach out, I wanna see how we're positioning AI to provide feedback to students, what students are doing with that feedback and how they're growing their practice from it, their skills from it.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

All right, you're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

Give it to us. Is it are are you about to liberate us all with your hot take?

SPEAKER_05 28:19

I mean, maybe we'll see. I don't know how many, how many educators are gonna want to do it, so I don't know. We'll see. But I'm thinking about moving away from student voice because student voice sometimes to me feels like a collection of voice after we've done something to you. And so I want us to move to student power. Ready? What if students co-presented teacher professional development at the beginning of the school? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:44

Wow, I love that idea. Wow, that's pretty good. I love it. That is really good.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

I like but but but will school districts refuse to give up the control to the kids because they're worried about it.

SPEAKER_05 28:54

I mean, this is why I think back to what I said at the beginning, right? There's this like mindset of the adults, the leaders, the teachers, everyone in this space that like we hold all of the knowledge and the knowledge of how we start the school year and what teachers need to know.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

All right, so hot hot take 2.0. Oh, oh, you got two oh two point oh. Well, that feeding off of Katie's hot take. Right. Hot take 2.0. We are constantly having conversations about ways in which teachers need to relinquish some of that control to students. So I'm speaking again to my admitted, my fellow administrator pals, APs, principals, district administrators. We got to give up some of that control over professional development and create spaces and opportunities for the for the kids to co-present. But that does that that's relinquishing of control. We can't put it all on the teachers and ask them to do it. We have to be the ones as administrators and district leaders to create those spaces to allow it to happen. So I'm coming back for you, administrators. Make it happen.

SPEAKER_03 29:56

Yeah, make it happen. So we'll leave a final word to our vaunted guest, Mr. Peter Hahn.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Don't don't be afraid of the AI and don't be afraid of the kids. Oh, uh the power of the AI or the power of the kids.

SPEAKER_05 30:10

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_03 30:11

I love it. I love it. That's hot. Very hot. Uh, Jay, take us out, brother. All right, that's a wrap for today.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

A huge thank you to, as we said, the vaunted Peter Hahn for joining us today. Uh, and thank you to all of us uh for all of us, for all of you for spending time with us uh here uh as we work through the opportunities of of allowing students uh to lead us in their learning. We hope you join us next time. We're gonna be diving into a conversation that I know uh you're not gonna want to miss. How do we cultivate academic identity? Uh and for this uh for this episode, we're gonna be joined by someone so exciting, so crucial to the conversation that we're we're not even gonna reveal the name right now. That name is gonna be a special guest. That's what you gotta do. We've got to leave them with the uh the like the anticipation to be continued. We're getting we're we're starting to figure this out here on the uh on the podcast.

SPEAKER_05 31:13

Only episode seven, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:15

Right. It's seven episodes in, still figuring it out, still growing. In the meantime, don't forget to follow or subscribe to Teaching Tomorrow wherever you get your podcasts, and leave us a rating or comment.

SPEAKER_04 31:25

Smash the like.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

It helps other educators find these conversations. And if you like what you heard, share this episode with a colleague who could use a little inspiration uh during the school year, and we all need a little inspiration. Right. Uh, until next time, keep teaching, keep learning, and keep building the tomorrow your students can believe in because here at Teaching Tomorrow, we believe in you. See you next time. Believe in you. Bye bye.

School Psychology Consultant Dr. Susan Koceski joins Jay, Katie, and Steven to unpack why dyslexia is finally receiving long overdue attention. We explore how reading is learned, why structured literacy benefits all students, and what Michigan’s new dyslexia law means for teachers, families, and schools.

SPEAKER_03 0:15

All right, good morning, good evening, good afternoon, wherever you are listening to the Teaching Tomorrow Podcast. We got a special one here for you all. A topic that's very apropos for today. Ooh, I used a big word. Um but without further ado, I am Steven. I want to introduce or let my co-hosts introduce themselves.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Hi, so excited to be back with you guys. Katie Morrison, math consultant for Oakland Schools. Hey.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

Happy to be back. Jay Hafner, literacy consultant, Oakland Schools. My main man's a hundred grand, Jay Hafner. And in a minute, we're going to bring in a very special guest, an expert, an industry expert, Dr. Susan Kasseski from Oakland Schools. We're going to be talking today about, uh, and hopefully I can say this without getting a copyright infringement. Ooh, we what up with that? What up with that? Yes, we're going old school. Do people know SNL? Is SNL still funny? It is. Yeah, yeah. I think it's still funny. Yeah, I think it's I still think it's funny too, but what is not funny is dyslexia. So we're gonna talk about why are so many people talking about dyslexia today? Like, like why now? Like what's going on? And more importantly, like as teachers and people working in schools, what can we do? Like what's what's actionable? And here's the thing where I'm like, part of me is like, I don't know, but what I do know is like really great uh instruction in in reading. Can't can't hurt, right? Can't I can't hurt. But what do I mean by like really great instruction in reading? So my jazz hands for my time in the classroom um was ensuring that students were actually interested in the reading text. So what are those texts that are grade level, appropriate, within their zone of what they should be able to read, and ensuring that whatever the stories, and I was a high school teacher, so whatever those stories are, that they resonate with the kids' lives. Because quite frankly, whether you have any sort of reading challenges or not, no one wants to read a thing that they don't want to read. They're like, oh, this is so what's not sorry, guys, sorry, if this is your thing out there, uh podcast world, I don't do romance novels. Like I just that's not my thing. So like just broke the heart of so many. I do, right? So like the whole Twilight thing, even though I like vampires, like the whole like romance thing, like that that's not me, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:48

It doesn't like sit with you.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

That doesn't sit with me, right? So if I have a reading challenge and this is the thing that we're reading, I ain't reading that at all. So that that kind of th exacerbates that that that challenge. I know there's many, many different things. Katie, what about you? Like in even in your math world, like what do you say about this issue of dyslexia?

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think like when I first heard the way this new like bill was being introduced is like the dyslexia law that's gonna like help support all of our students. I think, you know, the more I started to like make sense of it, the more that the amazing consultants at Oakland Schools helped to like shed some light on like what is truly within this bill. Um, it really connected me with the work that Michigan is already doing with MTSS as well as the work that you know the secondary world has really been doing around disciplinary literacy. Yeah. And really building really building this idea that like we all teach reading, writing, and listening as secondary teachers within content-specific domains. And one of the things that like stands, right, right, right. One of the things that really stands out to me is one day I took a problem that students would typically see in like, I would say, like a more traditional math textbook. I looked at that same concept and how students see it in the real world, and then looked at how they see it on the PSAT, and the starkness in the difference between the level of vocabulary, the level of like reading that the PSAT and SAT requires, like really set in my mind around like wow, we have to read in math. Like we have to do it. And we we can't just read math problems. Like we really have to read math in context and support our students and like building that. Um, and so I know today we're talking about dyslexia, but those are some of the things that I'm thinking is like how do we support all students in learning how to like read content-specific disciplines so that we're re building everyone's like real literacy development skills.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

You mean math teachers have to help students how to read?

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Not only do they have to help, but it is our job. We are also reading teachers.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

That feels controversial.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

I know.

SPEAKER_04 5:11

The literacy consultant is throwing a high five to the math teacher. High five. We're high fiving in the studio, yeah, yeah. Bridging uh bridging this gap. Yeah, yeah. Talk to him, talk to him. Yeah, so I over the course of my career, starting secondary uh English teacher uh and then being you know coach, administrator, district administrator, I've learned sort of a lot about this and developed a lot of feelings and thoughts about it. And when we talk about students who whether we're developing their ability to read or we're trying to close learning gaps that exist, uh early in my career, I had a lot of thoughts and conversations around intervention. And then as I got a little further into my career, I started to realize and engage in conversations about our core instruction. Our what are we doing in our core tier one instruction in our classrooms to ensure that we're providing a really solid foundation at an early developmental age for students, that we're identifying those gaps early, we're addressing them not only in intervention, but in our core instruction, and that we continue to address those uh as we as we move forward. And, you know, we're gonna talk a little bit here, you know, about the the thing that hangs over this conversation right now is PA 146. The this the You got real technical issue. Yeah, I was gonna say hello. Well, you're gonna hear what is it? You're gonna hear about this legislation that uh that that we're moving into here in the state of Michigan that's going to sort of help design and and lay the foundation for uh reading instruction as uh you know through our K-12 schools. But I think there's an important point to make. If we just look at legislation and take it as legislation, uh it's gonna feel compliance. All legislation comes across feeling just like it's a compliance piece. Like that Judge Dredd, like I am the law of the R. But there are there are opportunities within this to lean into some verifiable science-backed best practices that we can take advantage of in this space in order to ensure that we're giving uh all students an opportunity to grow their reading. So I'm I'm really passionate about this. I think I think there's some urgency. Because I think we should be feeling some urgency right now. All of us as educators should be feeling a little bit of urgency around where we are in the in the state of our, not only the state of our pedagogy, the state of our practice, the systems we're creating in schools, and the opportunities that we're providing teachers to educate students and grow their reading capabilities. These are urgent times, urgent moments. And this, if looked at and framed the right way, could be opportunity. So maybe we figure out a way to look at this as an opportunity uh moving forward here.

SPEAKER_03 8:06

I like opportunities. Opportunities sound good. Well, you got you got some other sound goods for us for our our guest here today. Jay, who who do we have in studio with us?

SPEAKER_04 8:14

So to help us unpack all of this, we are joined by Dr. Susan Kaseski. Dr. Kaseski is here with us today, school psychology consultant at Oakland Schools. Uh Susan's been at the forefront of this work for a very good portion of her career helping districts, educators make sense of both pedagogy systems development and the need to support and develop uh readers uh here in Oakland County and beyond. She's here to help us dig into why all this is getting the attention that it deserves and what it means for classrooms, teachers, and students today. Isn't Susan also a good idea?

SPEAKER_03 8:54

Have you done some like professoring in places? Not anymore.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Did you for about 20 years at Wayne State University?

SPEAKER_03 9:01

Ooh, 20 years. Were you a warrior or a tartar or both?

SPEAKER_01 9:05

I guess both.

SPEAKER_03 9:06

Both. Okay, all right. So we got we got some expertise in the studio. Yeah. A warrior tartar. A warrior tartar.

SPEAKER_04 9:13

All right. Yeah. So Dr. Professor, school psychology consultant, Susan Kiseski. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Good morning. This is a great topic, so I'm glad to be here. Great.

SPEAKER_04 9:25

Happy, yeah, happy, happy you're joining us today. So let's uh let's kick this off. Let's just start with the big question in our episode title. Uh, we know that you know, dyslexia isn't new. Reading challenges aren't new. Uh so why does it feel like it's suddenly getting so much attention in schools uh and in the legislation right now? What's uh what's going on?

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Well, this has been building for a long time. So I'm really glad that you have framed this as it's not a it's a new law, but I think going back to like 2016 and before, states across the nation have been really pushing for legislation uh regarding dyslexia. The uh PA 146, um, we like to talk about it as a K-12 literacy and dyslexia law, not just a dyslexia law, because we really are missing the biggest uh issue facing us, which is this really isn't about identifying kids with dyslexia. That's part of it indirectly. But the big push with this law and many others from across the nation have really been about improving core instruction. Why would we need to create improve core instruction? Well, we uh really have inadequate in the United States of America, we have inadequate overall reading achievement for many students, aside from kids that have dyslexia. So the movement has really begun with parents and teachers who were seeing uh maybe core instruction not matching what their students need. But the big idea is that uh the instructional principles that work for kids with dyslexia also are essential for kids that are in general-led classes. And that's really the push of the bill. So it's really about changing and improving and getting better results in core instruction so that we have less students being referred for supplemental services, intervention, and um special education.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:30

So um so we we've talked about these terms like tier one and like core instruction, and those might have like different meanings for different people. Like what is your understanding of what core instruction is? What is that? What up with that?

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Well, let's talk about what is dyslexia then first. Okay. I think that's probably the most important part because then we can get into how does this affect all students. So what is dyslexia? I want you to consider that dyslexia, excuse me, is really difficulties with accurate and fluent word recognition, poor spelling, and decoding skills. So it's not at the comprehension level. It's not my understanding of text. I can read the text and you understand it. This is about being able to decode the text. And that is really the defining core feature of dyslexia. And I have spent, I want you to consider, I've spent the majority of my career thinking and researching about students that find learning to read easy, effortlessly can read. And then for a large number of students, not a small percentage, a large number of students, 60% of students, 70% of the students, this is a formidable task. This is very difficult. And for a smaller group, 30% of students, very difficult. The most difficult thing that they're gonna do in school. So how could it be so easy for some students? And for a large number of students, it can be very difficult. And that really comes down to understanding what dyslexia is or and how the reading brain works. Because the reading brain doesn't work differently for kids that it's effortlessly for or kids that are struggling. We have one brain that has the same constraints for everybody. So it really is understanding the reading brain is really important and understanding that this is really not about comprehension. That's a big misconception in the field. This is about being able to read at the word level. And, you know, about one in five kids have this. So that's a large number of students that you think about every classroom has a kid that either has dyslexia or is struggling with reading as an at-risk reader. Yeah. So those are large numbers of students.

SPEAKER_04 13:51

Yeah, let's let's unpack that a little bit because I think doing a little bit of research and learning throughout my career, this was the moment that sort of shifted how I thought about students and their growth, their ability to read and close those learning gaps was when I started getting a little bit into the brain science and seeing the way in which the brain, the brain works and internalizes these processes. So one of the points that you emphasize, uh, Susan, is that reading isn't just this like natural byproduct that happens, that we we learn our oral skills and and pick up and develop our oral skills in a little more of a natural way. Reading is something different altogether. It's there has to be some like it's gotta be explicitly taught. So for our listeners, can you just break down a little bit about what that difference is between how we develop our oral skills versus how we develop our reading skills? There's a little bit of a difference there that I think matters in this discussion.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

It's so true. And this is where a lot of misconceptions have come out of reading practice, um, how we teach reading. Um it's important. Humans are born with brains that are wired to acquire language. That's right. You can't almost stop someone from acquiring language if they can hear. So that spoken language is developed through immersion. We talk to kids and we learn to talk by being talked to. So we have this extraordinarily organized brain system for language. We don't have that for reading. It doesn't exist. So in fact, one of my favorite facts is um written language is just a human invention. We don't have brain functions that do it. We have it for language, we don't have it for reading. Less than 10% of the world's languages actually have a written system. So when you start to consider that, we have to consider, well, like how does the brain do this? And this the brain really needs explicit instruction to make pathways work between the visual system and the language system. We have to like make these pathways, we have to invent them. We actually hijack the language system to make reading happen. For some kids, that process takes very little exposure and effort for the majority of kids, not for a small percentage, but for a majority of kids, they really need systematic, explicit instruction in the phonology and the code of language arphonics skills that help them make connections in the brain that aren't there.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

That we are changing the way the brain develops. We actually hijack a little system, it's called a ver visual word form area, and we um make we change the visual system. So it just says, oh, that's language. These letters, that's language. Let me push it to the language areas of the brain, let me push it there. And we create pathways that weren't there before. So it isn't about immersion. Right. So one of my favorite quotes and that I teach often is uh reading is taught, not caught. And that is not my quote quote, it's from Dr. Strom, but it really emphasizes the we need to teach it explicitly. And um, structured literacy practices, they're um good for all, um harmful to none, and crucial for some kids. And that's really what I hope this bill and other bills that have come along have really been focused on how do we improve core instruction so we get better outcomes. We want instructional materials, training, experience to be um impactful for the majority of kids in a classroom.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Students can benefit, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

All students, not just a few students. And so that's really the take right now. The bill, um one of the things that I want to say about the bill that it concerns me a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

I feel like um bills like these rest on the back of classroom teachers. And I'm not sure that that's where the responsibility really lies right now for you know, classroom teachers, they don't pick the curriculum, they don't pick the assessment system, they don't get to pick their training, they don't get to pick their resources and their structure of support. So I really I I get nervous about the bill and the second bill, 147, is aimed towards higher ed and making sure teachers have certain credentials, which is great. But I really think this is an opportunity for district administration, for lar districts to look at their systems. When teachers aren't successful, it is the job of the system to identify the barriers and address them. It's this I get nervous when we think it's like the teachers aren't teaching. It's a part of a huge system. And I think this bill is really trying to get people to look at the system. And that I think is an important takeaway for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

So Susan, I really appreciate you talking about that for our listeners who are teachers who are saying, ooh, this is resonating with me, but I'm not sure like what I could do differently in my classroom that would support students who might be struggling, but also knowing that good practices are good practices for all. So for some of our secondary teachers who are saying, okay, so what might this look like? What are some things that you you might shed some light on for those teachers?

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Well, for secondary in particular, um morphology and vocabulary becomes a really critical part of the teaching. So language is language, it's K-12 language. And um, for secondary, that becomes really important. Um, from the system point of view, it really we hit should have it in schools. It's never too late to learn to read, right? We're never giving up on anybody. So our systems in secondary are particularly challenged with getting intervention to still happen in secondary. It's possible, it it can happen, but it really takes the commitment. We're a little bit better on the MTSS side in uh elementary right now.

unknown 20:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

And um, we want early intervention. You know, it's very difficult. I used to say all the time, you know, like, how hard is it if you're a fourth or fifth grade teacher to work with a kid that's really struggling to read? And usually a group of professionals will be like, it's very hard. And I'm like, is it hard for the kid or hard for you? It's hard for both. When you're trying to close a two, three-year gap, it's really difficult. So uh do you believe in early intervention and uh closing that gap early? And that means that we're really, I think, in a lot of places in Oakland County are really focused on their core instruction and seeing how systematic, how explicit it is. We have the what of teaching and then the how of teaching. And so some of the how of teaching is getting refined and bolstered right now. And I think it'll have a positive impact on more kids, and that's important. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 21:14

So what do you so what do you break break it down for what do you mean? And and again, I'm a like an old high school teacher, so I'm I'm used to like we teach literature, right? The name of the course literally was American literature, British literature. What do you mean by explicit instruction? Break that down for me.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Well, let's go back to what we talked about earlier. You just don't learn to read by being exposed to people reading. Right, right, right. So there's a lot of uh perspectives that think like good literature in the classroom, we expose, we get you excited about the joy of reading can help you learn to read. Um that is not exactly how we need to teach it for most kids, because we need explicit instruction. So to me, when I talk about an explicit approach, which applies to math, it applies to other areas, I always think coaching is explicit instruction. A coach doesn't just put you out on the field and say, go at it.

unknown 22:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

You know, a coach is saying, this is how I want you to feel this ground ball. I need you to put your hands here, like they're explicitly teaching you. And so that same thing happens for reading. We need explicit instruction, and like I always say in volleyball, a lot of touches on the ball. I mean, lots of practice. So to me, explicit instruction is sequential instruction with a scope or sequence. We're gonna cover common sounds and um graphemes in our English language. We're gonna cover them all. Um it's cumulative, it has explicit corrective feedback. I'm not gonna let you hang on with an air for too long. I'm gonna correct that right away. High student interaction and engagement, um, a synthetic like approach to phonics, which is really teaching. Um, it's not happenstance, it's really going through in a systematic way. Like we have a lot of science on what's the order of the phonemes and how they're presented, what's the order of the graphemes that match to phonemes? How do we teach that? So we have careful like examples and non-examples, so we avoid confusion. Like we don't teach B and D right together, right? That seems a little tough. Um, and then of course, we use um a big thing is we use decodable text as a part of reading instruction, not the whole thing. Right. But it's like we have taught you something, we've gotten your sound system aware, we've taught you the graphemes that match, and then we put it right in text for you to practice. Though those are elements that you would see in most explicit instruction reading programs, like across the board. Some vary in how they introduce certain sounds or things like that. But in general, that's what explicit instruction is about. It's really about that's how we teach, and what we teach is the phonology. We teach phonemic awareness. Um, I have done, as a school psychologist, I have done evaluations for seventh, eighth, and ninth graders that still do not have phonemic awareness. Cannot, and our English language is so dependent on the sound structure and having a really rich understanding of the sound structure of our language. So that phonology, letter sound relationships, which is when we talk about phonics, orthography, which is our spelling patterns, vocabulary, and that's when we get into secondary and their important lift that we need to continue to focus on the more advanced um decoding principles that happen in vocabulary that happens in secondary. So those are kind of the elements that's the what to teach and the how to teach. I think the what to teach we have less controversy on at this point. I think the how to teach is where we're like coming along. And um we'll see. I hope that this I agree with you, Jay. I this can't be compliance. Um I'm hoping that we will I and I think we're seeing uh even teachers say, I knew this wasn't working really well. Or you hear teachers bringing in their own resources, going to teacher pay teacher, going to all these places to get resources. And I think when teachers are doing it, it means that what they have in core instruction isn't working. Yeah. And they are searching for something. So I think that we have some answers that are going to be good.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Yeah. Which goes back to what you were saying about like it's really a system approach. Absolutely. Can't focus on like individual teachers all working within the system to try to like make a difference.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

No, they don't really and they don't have the decisions. And I think right now this law is saying, hey, administration, um, we have to have a system. I know there's districts piloting different um materials, which is great. It's not that teachers aren't involved in the process, but they don't ultimately make that decision. And I think that this law really is trying to push the system, trying to push MTSS. And I think that that's a good thing. That's that's a good thing for all students. Yeah, that's a win for all students. And it's not just not just kids with dyslexia, but all students.

SPEAKER_04 26:10

All kids. So as as you're talking, I was I was sitting here trying to think of comparisons in my brain to the practice of reading. And you you touched on it a little bit in the moment that I was thinking about it, and you went to the the baseball analogy. And I am a uh eight-year former high school baseball coach. And so I woo-hoo, yeah. As you had that and said that, I had it in my mind and wanted to lift just to sort of bring the conversation back, to there are two very important things on the table when it comes to reading instruction for students. How we teach explicitly, how we teach students to read is a core function that's important to their reading development. Ensuring that students have opportunities to grow and love the act of reading is also important. And that's where I come to the baseball analogy. When I'm a baseball coach and I'm working with students, I am giving, or sorry, working with players, I am providing them explicit instruction on how to hit a baseball, where you place your hands at your stance, how you move your weight through the ball, how you bring your hands down through the baseball. That's very technical, it's very explicit, and we do it during practice. There is a comparison to how we teach reading in the classroom to that. However, the thing that gets kids back to the playing field every single practice to continue to work on their craft is a love of baseball and a love of the pre the thing that they're practicing. You gotta love it. And so we want to ensure that while we're teaching students the explicit measures and points of developing their reading, that we're also providing them entry points to love the thing that they're practicing. And when those two things do come together, you do have opportunities to grow students in their reading development, to grow players in their in their baseball development. There is an interesting connection that you made there. And I was making that same connection in my mind when you said it.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

One thing, though, that that that I love that, and I often think that coaching is teaching and teaching is coaching. But there's some momentum too.

SPEAKER_04 28:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

You have to be good at it. And as you see, no matter where you're starting, if you see yourself improving, that's where progress monitor comes in. We have progress monitoring in athletics. When you see yourself improving, it it it it gets you some momentum. You want to do it. That's right. Kids don't when a a big problem we have in schools is we have kids with behavioral difficulties acting out and everything. I'll evaluate them and figure out they can't read. So it's the chicken or the egg at this point.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

Yeah. That's a big problem.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

So when you're not a reader, I was just talking to a teacher the other day and it's first day of school, and a kid introduced himself to their third grade teacher and said, I can't read. And I looked at my friend and said, believe that kid.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Because I bet you they can't. And so I think that it's to get the joy and love of reading, you have to be good at it. You have to start with that. And if you're not good at it, what do we say? What do you do when you're not good at something? Do you like want to do it every day?

SPEAKER_03 29:28

Walk away.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Walk away, avoid it, act out. So that's what I'm saying. That's why I don't go to the gym.

SPEAKER_03 29:35

I should though.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

There is so many secondary problems with like I I couldn't read at the word level. Like I'm struggling with learning to read, learning understanding the sound symbol relationships, all that. But then there's huge complications. So when I'm not reading, I am not developing my understanding of how text works. I'm not getting enriched vocabulary that's going to help me. I'm not certainly reading. Outside of school. So it becomes a real problem for the haves and the have nots at that point. Like kids are getting richer who are reading, and there's kids that aren't reading at all. So we've got that instruction and coaching that you're talking about ends up bringing kids in that are at the fringes that this is a struggle for me. I I this doesn't come easy. How can you read that book? And I can't. That is hard. And kids know in their classes that they are not readers. And that's where a lot of this dyslexia movement came in. It's from parents watching their students. Emily Hanford did the Soul the Story, that did a big push in our country about the reading state. That was a very hot topic. She did an excellent job. There was no new research in what she presented, but she did it in a way that was real accessible to people. It also came in a time right after COVID. Yeah. And a lot of parents were witnessing instruction happen for their student and saying, like, oh, my kid can't do that. Can't do that at all. Or look at how far off the mark my kid is. And that that was like a I call it the COVID conundrum. Like a parent is now like, whoa, this is different. Why are we teaching in this way? So that's kind of been another real push in the country that it it was already existing before, but that was a little bit of a tidal wave.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

Well, that's super hot that Emily Hanford, I know everybody was talking about that. And now we're gonna transition to our hot topic segment, Dr. Kazassi, don't go away, stay right there. This is a segment where each of us kind of lobs just a bomb and we just walk away like bam, right? Our hot topics. Um I guess mine isn't so so hot. It's it's lukewarm. We've already talked about it today. Uh, but again, my world uh as a high school teacher, and Katie, you you kind of stole my thunder a little bit. It's okay. I still love you. Uh everybody's a reading teacher. Everybody. And I'm talking to all my my high school, my middle school folks out there. I love us. Um the math teacher, yep, you teach reading. The science teacher, yep, you teach reading. The gym teacher, yep, you teach physical education teacher. Yeah, ph it's pardon, pardon my friends, yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

I was gonna say that's the physical education teacher will just like gym is a place. I teach physical. I teach physical.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Good job, Katie.

SPEAKER_03 32:28

And and everybody teaches students how to read. And like uh Dr. Kasuski said, uh, like it is up to the system. And so as as administrators, as leaders, we have to design that system in such that every every adult feels supported in their ability to. Because in as much as students need to feel good at doing a thing, uh in traditional teacher prep, many like if you were not an ELA teacher, you it's very likely that you were not given any skills or guidance and how to teach reading within you know, uh within a physical education class or within that science class. And so we develop these identities uh as like a content area area teacher, and we're all we're all teaching reading. So we all have a stake in that fight. That's my hot take. Jay, what about you?

SPEAKER_04 33:19

Yeah, so I'm gonna pick up on the just continuing with the coaching analogy that we had earlier to lead into uh where I'm where I'm thinking the best coaches put their players in a position to be successful. Lloyd Carr, right? The best teachers put their students in a position to be successful. Yes, go blue. Yeah, there we go. And go green and white for our state state listeners. We don't want we need listen. We need we need listeners. Go everyone. There you go. I like that. We need everyone. Go everyone. Okay, all right, keep going. All right. So the best teachers uh put their students in a position to be successful. The best administrators and district administrators put their teachers in position to be successful. You uh, Dr. Koseski, you had a quote earlier. I believe that quote came from uh Gibbons, Brown, and Nebling. Uh right, from so one of my I have two two call, two call to actions here. Number one, the Gibbons, Brown, and Nebling's book, Effective Universal Instruction, an action-oriented approach to improving tier one. A lot of really good quote book. Yes, good resources in there to sort of lead us back to the conversation we were having earlier about tier one instruction, core instruction being uh a key and integral to this. Uh so just to build out this quote, uh, they do have a quote that says that when poor students' outcomes occur in education, the system's quick to blame the teacher. Uh, in reality, when teachers are not successful, it's a system level problem. It is the job of the system to identify barriers and address them. So, my call to action as a former building administrator, district administrator, it is to my fellow administrators at the building level and the district level to use this and take this as an opportunity to engage ourselves in some real concerted learning and understanding of how reading occurs, why it occurs, and what we can do within our system to put the teachers in the best position possible to deliver the instruction that the students need, because I know we have teachers in every classroom across this county and beyond. They are ready to do it, they are eager to do it, they want to see the results in their classroom. I am asking and calling on fellow administrators to use this as an opportunity to leverage what the the uh what's in this bill to turn it not into compliance and not view it as compliance, but view it as best practice for what we do to teach reading across the K-12 spectrum.

SPEAKER_03 35:52

I think we need like a fire extinguisher because Jay on fire. Jay's on fire right here. Katie, what about you? What's your hot take?

SPEAKER_00 35:59

Yeah, I mean, I almost feel like Jay should have gone last. So I'm gonna bring it back to the teachers. Um, and maybe this is a hot take, but like I think it's really important. Let's provide scaffolds for all students. I'm talking to my secondary teachers, like writing stems that incorporate vocabulary, support all students in developing that vocabulary, becoming able to use that vocabulary. I mean, using visuals is supportive for all students. And so I'm bringing it back to the teacher level, and I'm gonna say provide scaffolds for everyone, give everyone sentence stems that support their vocabulary development, and use visual representations when they're next to new equations, representations, and symbols to support all students.

SPEAKER_03 36:42

Look at you, a math teacher that's talking that reading jazz. We're gonna leave the last hot topic to our esteemed guest, Dr. Susie Kasseski. Hot topic, what you got?

SPEAKER_00 36:52

Yes, what you got.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

There's so many. It's hard to pick. Um what I would like to say to teachers out there that are teaching, reading, and sometimes struggling and putting your heart and soul into this is um there's lots of support for learning how to do uh structured literacy for sure. But I think the the that immersion is so important to me because um the brain uh doesn't have the cortical structure really for reading. We have to create it. It doesn't exist at birth, it doesn't exist in non-readers. So we have to really make the connection from the visual areas of the brain to that language area of the brain. And the only way we do it is from explicit instruction. So to me, um, teaching is changing the brain. And everyone should know that. Like we are creating pathways in the brain that didn't exist. And if we the the consequence is when we don't do it, those pathways don't develop and we have non-readers. So it's really important to understand how the brain processes print and then pick your instructional um pedagogy. It it's not the reverse. And so I think that that would be my takeaway. There's lots of videos, there's lots of training at Oakland schools. I do training on how does the brain um how does the reading brain work? And I think once that is crystallized for people, it makes it a much easier to say, oh, now I see why explicit instruction is really important. So that would be my takeaway.

SPEAKER_04 38:26

Well, we are going to wrap it up for today. Uh and this was a hot one. It was a hot one. And it's a this one, it is. It's a it's a call to action. I think we have like multiple calls to action here at multiple levels to really uh lean into this and and and see that we approach this uh this this new opportunity, not as compliance, but as uh best practice. A huge thank you to Dr. Susan Kisasky. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Appreciate you joining us today for having me. And to all of you for spending the time with us as we have kicked off the school year together. Happy New Year to all of you. Happy new the best happy new year of it all of them all. We are we have started school across Michigan. We hope you found something here to inspire your own practice and spark new ideas for your classroom or school community. Join us next time. We're gonna be diving into a conversation that I don't think you're gonna want to miss, especially if you're a classroom teacher. What do we do about these cell phones? The cell phones? The cell phones. It's still a don't get me started on that. Yeah, well, we're gonna we're gonna get started on it. We have an entire episode, so let's get started on thinking about that. It's an interesting conversation in this moment. Uh, there's actually a lot being done uh right now. We have some a lot of new ideas that are out there about uh the cell phone conundrum. So it'll be interesting to unpack. We hope you can join us. In the meantime, don't forget to pull out that cell phone and follow or subscribe to Teaching Tomorrow. Listening to this on your cell phone. Yeah. As you're listening to it on your cell phone. Uh class. Make sure you follow or subscribe to the Teaching Tomorrow podcast wherever you find your entertainment and leave us a rating or comment. It helps other educators find these conversations. Smash the like. If you liked what you heard, share this episode with a colleague or family member, brother, sister, mom, dad. We want we we want them all. Michigan fans, state fans. We we want you all listening to this. Okay, I guess. Uh anyone who needs a little inspiration for the year ahead, uh, we hope we can uh help provide a little bit of that. For now, keep teaching, keep learning, and keep building the tomorrow your students can believe in because here at Teaching Tomorrow, we believe in you. See you next time. See you next time. Bye bye.

For this week's episode, we welcomed two outstanding teachers from Avondale School District to discuss unique and innovative ways to support staff and students with with cell phone policies and practices that keep the classroom focused on learning. Jennifer Bahorski, ELA Teacher at Avondale Middle School and Vanessa Wentzloff, Science Teacher at Avondale High School engaged our hosts Jay, Katie, and Steven in a lively discussion on Avondale's cell phone policy, including practical steps that teachers and school leaders can take.

SPEAKER_06 0:16

Good morning, good evening, or good afternoon, wherever you happen to be. Welcome to episode six. Woo! Insert explosion emojis, episode six of the Teaching Tomorrow Podcast. I am just one of your esteemed hosts, uh, Steven.

SPEAKER_03 0:34

Joined by Katie Morrison, math consultant with Open School.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

And after six tomorrows, I'm still here today, Jay Hafner.

SPEAKER_03 0:42

They're dropping us with the jokes on episode six. He took a couple episodes to warm up, but now it's like really feeling the humor.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

There'll be no more jokes for the rest of this episode now that you've said it.

SPEAKER_06 0:54

So like to gentlemen, welcome to Teaching Tomorrow with Jay, Katie, and Steven. Today's episode, it's a hot one, y'all. We've had a couple hot ones already. This one's gonna be like muy caliente. What do we do about cell phones? The dog on cell phones. What do we do? So if you are listening out there, this we got a special treat for you. We have two amazing teachers from a phenomenal school district that uh is really doing some neat things around helping teachers and students keep teaching and learning at the focus, not TikTok at the focus in the classroom. Cell phones. So what do we do about cell phones? So, Katie, I'm gonna toss it to you first before we bring in our esteemed guest. You were a math teacher.

SPEAKER_05 1:39

I was in a class.

SPEAKER_06 1:40

You could use it for a calculator, right? Use it for instructional purposes. Question mark, question mark, question mark. What say you? What's what's going on?

SPEAKER_03 1:48

Yeah, I don't know. Like this is a this is a hard one. So in preparation for this episode, I was really thinking about prepared.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Of course you prepared.

SPEAKER_03 1:55

Of course you prepared. And not only did I prepare, I brought a stat to drop on us. So I was thinking about this episode and really thinking about this idea of like policies that we have. So the National Institute of Educational Statistics cited that 77% of schools across the country have cited that they have a policy that prohibits cell phone usage in some capacity.

SPEAKER_06 2:21

77%.

SPEAKER_03 2:22

77%. And I thought about that.

SPEAKER_06 2:24

That's a statistical majority.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

Right, right? That is. Um, I thought about that and I was like, I wonder if it's less around the policy and more around the challenge of like how teachers bear that like burden of having to like enforce that policy in their classroom. And so I really I was thinking about because this is such a struggle, right? Like so much of like our students, ourselves like adults, right, are connected to phones and social media and everything that comes with that 24-7 access to I gotta track my Amazon order, right? Um, and so I think like the more I thought about like this episode and really thinking about like a stance was like we put a lot on teachers to say this might be the policy, but what does that look like inside of your classroom? How do you enforce it without it feeling like it's like this battle between you and the students every day?

SPEAKER_02 3:20

Yeah, and how long has it been a battle, feeling like it's a battle?

SPEAKER_03 3:24

I mean, oh there's a battlefield.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

That was Dr. Steven Sneed. Uh Did I just violate copyright right there? I think you did.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

I think to be honest, I think every episode Steven has had to come back with, did I just violate copyright right now?

SPEAKER_02 3:37

I think I did so yeah, all right. Well, we violate copyright here. Uh, and you can research copyright on your cell phone while others are talking. Good reader, good reader. I love it. Uh yeah, so I'm I'm wondering, or just I often think like this seems like it's been a persistent problem, quote unquote problem, uh, and also a persistent opportunity for additional learning space in the classroom for quite a long time. Uh, you know, I've been in in the c when I started in the classroom back in 2005, uh, cell phones were in the early stages of being problematic in the classroom, but they were problematic.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

Yeah, because they were playing snake. Right. And that yes, the first kids. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

So it but it's but it's evolved over the course of time to the uh levels of of issues that that we we hear today. Um, so much so where kids are we're having students that find that they're just communicating with one another in the classroom through their cell phones, but not necessarily having like comfortability in conversations and during group work and student engagement. Um we we're just seeing a lot of like evolution of the problem, quote unquote problem, but it still continues to be a problem. And the solutions that we're uh bringing to the table seem to be far and wide. Uh, we haven't nailed down like one solution. But we're gonna nail it down today. We're gonna nail it down today after tomorrow podcast with J Katie and Stephen. And we have two guests that are here, not to put pressure on these two guests, no pressure to like say there are solutions and there are things that we can think about as educators to maybe start moving a little more forward down the field when it comes to cell phone use in the classroom. Yeah, there's a plug for a coaching series that Katie and I do call it forward down the field.

SPEAKER_06 5:33

I mean, I had the singing birdwalk, you got the PL pre PD plug. But I like that forward down the field. Great, great professional learning opportunity for coaches. Check that out. Yeah, check it out at school's website.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

But until then, why don't you introduce our guests and let's get into this?

SPEAKER_06 5:48

Well, I'll tell you uh when I was in the classroom, uh, and this is maybe a dated uh strategy, I don't even know if it works. I wouldn't do it now because cell phones are too expensive. I used to collect them, cell phones. When I used to see them, I used to take them, right? Because that was our policy. Um, and that was back when like cell phones were like 200 bucks. Okay. Uh at the as of the day of this podcast, the iPhone 17 has dropped. Uh, I think the iPhone 17 Pro Max is something like 1200 or 1300 bucks. Like these phones are thousand-dollar phones. I don't know about collecting them anymore, but but in terms of collecting, we've actually collected two very special guests for you. Uh-huh. See what I did there? We've collected two teachers who are at the forefront of this work in a very special school district, Avondale Schools. One of them is from Avondale Middle School, the other from Avondale High School. And they've done some really interesting and neat things with providing an environment to help redirect the focus back to teaching and learning. So, ladies and gentlemen, I want to introduce Jennifer Pahorsky. Say hey, Jennifer. Hi, everybody. Clap her if you're you're listening to your car. Yeah, everybody clap. Clap her, yeah, yeah. Hey, for the teachers. And Vanessa Winslov. Hey, Vanessa. Hey, how are you doing? Great. Awesome, awesome. So we asked you here today for this podcast, but because no, because we know that there's some interesting things happening in Avondale, uh, but a little different between your two schools. Uh, so Vanessa, let me start with you. Like, what's happening in your your space relative to cell phones? How is Avondale helping to support you? And then what do you do to support kids being focused in the class?

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Thanks. You know, as a staff, we realized over the years just how hard this is to manage. And we tried different things throughout the years, and honestly, we really wanted a solid policy that was school-wide. So last school year, we started off with a policy that there was no cell phones at all during instructional time. And this also includes AirPods, headphones, their own laptops, anything like that. And what happens if I see Johnny on his cell phone in class, I go over, I take it, I put it in an envelope, and then the assistant principal gets it, emails home. And guess who has to pick it up? Yeah. The parent. Okay. Uh and after certain students get a certain number of violations, it kind of escalates. Um but it's really cool because the students are more engaged in general. So it used to be, you know, the kids no matter what in the hallways before this were always on their phones. Now we notice after we got we had this policy, kids are less likely to be on their phones, honestly. And they're having conversations. We notice the same thing uh in the cafeteria. We have huge homecoming assemblies at our school. Homecoming is huge. And in years past, kids are sitting there on their phones, everything like that. The first homecoming after this policy, the kids were so engaged. I've never I have not seen that level of engagement. It was amazing. Um another thing that I think is unique too is I think important, not just unique, is that when the students leave the classroom for any reason, choose the restroom, go to the office, they have to leave their cell phone. So we're also making sure that during that instructional time, completely protected, and I will tell you, they come back from the bathroom way faster. They're not walking around doing whatever. They're not making a Snapchat. Yeah, right. Back and forth, super fast. It's wild. And when we first started this, I think the students were like, are they gonna do it? Are they gonna take our phones? And we did. Yeah. And we were all on the same page that year. It does become exhausting. I'm not gonna lie. Okay, okay. Um, we come back this school year, same policy, same things. And it's been what, three weeks? A lot less cell phones confiscated. Nice. The kids understand the policy, they don't want to deal with it, the parents don't want to deal with it. So it's really cool coming into school year where the kids know the policy, and they they just know now not to be on them and put them away. So for me as a teacher, it's just so much easier because you don't have to worry about that extra thing. I remember when we didn't have this policy, kids would be on their phones and you would be like, put them away, put them away, and they wouldn't, and and it's you know, you don't want to let that kid fail, right? You can email home, all these things, and this all kids are held at the same expectation. And I think it's we've seen how positive this is just through, like I said, the hallways, the cafeteria, the homecoming assemblies. These kids are engaged because they're used to not having their phones.

SPEAKER_06 10:35

Wow. So it sounds like you really like over time created that culture and the condition like, hey, this is the way we do business here. You better get on board. And more and more kids are getting on board. That's nice.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Yeah, it is nice. Um, I'm a science teacher, so for all of the science teachers, we're you know, totally for this, but all of a sudden we realize we use phones for a lot of things in class, like timers and calculators, and I use it in physics class for um taking videos. And all of a sudden we were like, we need to order timers, we gotta make sure everyone has calculators. And I was like, I need to find some type of software so my kids can analyze videos. So I think it also forced us to look at what resources we need and honestly get more creative. And now the software I use in my physics class is super fun. It's a video analysis, and like the kids get way more out of it than they used to like take a video on their phone.

SPEAKER_06 11:30

Yeah, yeah, wow. I mean, I I really like the uh putting taking the cell phone when we're going to the bathroom. I think that's smart for so many reasons. We won't elaborate here on the Teaching Tomorrow podcast, but um kudos to you to you all. Kudos to you for because I know it's hard to kind of like stay the course, you know. I mean, separating a child from their cell phone, oh my goodness. Like that that's a thing. So kudos, shout out to you, shout out to the the the science teachers out there.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Honestly, our whole like our whole school really embraced it, and I think that was the important thing. I remember last year when we talked about it at the very beginning of the school year, like you know, during the PD at the beginning of the year, everyone's like, Yes, I'm so excited. Like people were like rejoicing, like we were so excited to have that policy, and then watching everyone follow through from the administration level, from the teachers, and yeah, it got hard at the end of the school year. I'm not gonna lie. Um, it got difficult to keep it up and headphones and all that stuff, but coming back to the school year and seeing, like you said, that culture set was completely worth it.

SPEAKER_06 12:35

Nice. Well, I want to bring on your your partner here from the different building, uh, Jennifer Sput. You have a slightly different approach in in your space. Help me understand how do you deal with um with cell phones. So tell us what you what you do, what you teach.

SPEAKER_04 12:48

Oh, uh I teach English and drama.

SPEAKER_06 12:51

Shout out to the English and drama teachers.

SPEAKER_04 12:52

No, checking those papers.

SPEAKER_06 12:54

Yeah. Oh, tell me about it. I was a high school English teacher. Oh, I know all about it.

SPEAKER_04 12:58

Um, so middle schoolers are younger, and our building decided to not try to battle with the self-discipline of and the hiding of it. I'm not saying kids don't hide it occasionally, but we invested in a company that makes like these lockable pouches. Um, so our procedure is you walk in the front door, immediately the principals, both of them, which gives them a chance to like greet each student, they have this little magnetic thing, and you they watch you put your phone inside. It kind of looks like a pencil case and it snaps shut. And it's it really is just a heavy-duty like magnet, and they just close it, and then it is locked. So you'd have to like have heavy-duty scissors to open it. And really, we don't have kids doing that. You can have your phone off, but you can still have it like tracking your location, um, and they can keep that with them all day. So there is no we don't we don't track where the yonder pouch is, they're called yonder, y-o-n d R.

SPEAKER_05 13:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 14:00

And they use them at other venues too, like concerts and and maybe comedians and that kind of thing. But um it went, I would say, game changer for sixth graders. I teach sixth grade, but seventh grade, 12s, 11, 12, 13, they're all that same age. It's a huge addiction. I would I would argue it might be one of the worst addictions in youth right now. Way more than drugs or anything that we think, ooh, addiction. And to be unilaterally off your phone for eight hours, I don't police anything. They don't generally break them and try to open them. Um and I won't go into the details of what if they forget them or are they free or all that.

SPEAKER_05 14:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:40

Um, we don't come from a super high uh socioeconomic district, and we made it work. Um, I would say game changer. There was no more policing. Um, there was no more calculation. I I I'm an English teacher, so we don't generally use calculators, but you know, they're two dollar plastic calculators. Um we have everything we need. You don't need a digital ruler, you can go old school. Like nobody really needs a phone when you're 11 in front of you. Um our fights and that's the hot take right there.

SPEAKER_06 15:09

Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:11

Well, really, don't. It's crazy. Another stat to drop at you guys. Katie's dropping stuff. She really did prepare it.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

At least one of us prepared.

SPEAKER_03 15:19

I mean, I I was looking up and noted that because I was like, when are kids bringing in cell phones, right? Like, are cell phones an issue in elementary school? Do they start being an issue?

SPEAKER_04 15:27

Well, my sixth graders have all had cell phones since their fourth grade.

SPEAKER_03 15:30

Yes. Nationwide, over 55% of 11-year-olds own their own personal cell phone.

SPEAKER_04 15:37

Wow. I would argue it's higher because my kids are the beginning of seventh, sixth grade, and like a lot of them aren't 12 yet. And I would say in my particular class, and I have 107 kids, total throughout the day, I'd say it's 80%. Yeah. Wow. And you can tell there are a lot of them, you can tell the difference between kids when we do a lot of talking about you know, social emotional things and their personal lives sort of come up. And the kids that have anything at all besides gaming, you know, hey chat, join the chat, you know, all that vernacular they use. If they're super like well versed in that versus this kid's got anything else that they do besides hours of gaming and cell phone use, like you can tell the difference in the student. It's just it matters that they spend a lot of time on a cell phone versus not.

unknown 16:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

So I wanted to ask uh either one of you, feel free to take this question. Um, in my experience back when I was an administrator, trying to set policies, work with teachers on uh you know appropriate cell phone use, fell into the red light, green light, yellow light, remember. Yes, I remember having the light.

SPEAKER_03 16:47

Yeah, and it was too wishy-washy. Way too wishy-washy, right? Again goes back to that stat where it relies on teacher, individual teachers to set individual policy and set individual enforcement.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

And so so often we we as as administrators we'd reach out to the parents and try and engage in conversations around ways we can partner with the parents in order to help, you know, help bring some sanity and some sense to this. And I often found parents were of two minds. Uh, number one, they agreed with us that they, you know, they don't want their students or their children having access to cell phones, using cell phones in the classroom. Classrooms are sacred learning spaces. And yet they wanted to make sure that their kids had a cell phone on them in the event that there's an emergency or they need to contact them. So there was always this sort of fine line. My question to you guys is as you both had moved forward in your spaces with these with these new policies, in what ways have you seen support andor pushback from the parents? Like, how's the parent community with you guys as teachers and teaching the kids and having conversations with the parents, how have they felt about the adjustments and changes that you guys are leaning into?

SPEAKER_00 17:58

I mean, I will be honest that I feel like I haven't heard of much pushback from it.

SPEAKER_05 18:04

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

You know, I think as parents, if you have to go pick up that phone because your child had it out in class, it is a huge inconvenience, and that policy is there for a reason. And I think that parents see that value you're talking about. But being able to have it with them and not just like locked away in a locker does have that peace of mind that I think is really important. I mean, I had a student who got their cell phone taken away, and their parent was like, I'll just get it when it's convenient for me. You got it taken away, that's a consequence. So there's natural consequences with all of this. So and he was like, honestly, I I see why they did that. I see why the parent did that, it makes sense. Um so I feel like generally it's been supportive because they know it's honestly better outcomes in the classroom for kids. I love it.

SPEAKER_06 18:52

I wonder if they put like 20 staples on the envelope to make it like super inconvenient to take the phone out. That's very mature. But maybe an evidence-based strategy.

SPEAKER_04 19:03

Well, like middle school's kids are a little younger. Um and I we we have had a little pushback about not being able to contact your student. Okay. Um and what if there was an emergency? You know, in the wake of all of the things that happened in schools, especially locally, you know, think Oxford and all that. And so all of our evacuations and drills include a bag with a heavy-duty pair of scissors. If you had to cut it open, I could. Okay. And immediately, and you know, we leave with our class list, um, this flip chart thing, a whistle and uh scissors in this thing. So in the unlikely event that I would have to do that, I can. I would also argue that you know, a good administrator is gonna have to sit and explain that you know, you may have to not have that super convenient factor of what did you have for lunch today, or like you you can't contact them, but it's not it's not there's an emergency. It's silly stuff. Like, yeah, it's super easy to contact your kid. And most of the time, let's be honest, it has nothing to do with contacting your parent. Or they want to know, did you turn in your homework? Or like you you need to separate, and so it's more of a burden on administrators because our school is the exact same thing. I do not have to argue with anyone. I take it and I hand it right to the administrator, and it's the exact same they'll do an explanation, they'll say your kid is safe, you can still have the location on, you can see them moving down the little hallway, you know they're there, you know they got to school, and we all have phones in every class. So if you need to pick up my phone and call home and say cheerleading is canceled, you know, you can still do that. And I I think that it's uh kind of hard to sell something when you're really saying, Yes, life is gonna be more inconvenient for you. So that pushback, nobody wants more inconvenience, but yeah, I love it. I just don't even have to think about cell phones anymore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 20:55

Wow, I don't have to think about cell phones anymore.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

Yeah, so we were talking earlier in uh about a study that we had read that said that even students who have their cell phone in their pocket, it's not on their desk. If that cell phone buzzes, vibrates, or rings, that it breaks their attention so much so that it takes like five minutes in order to redirect just attention back towards whatever's happening in front of them. Also liking that to uh distracted driving. It's a very similar situation. When your phone might be next to you while you're driving, the phone buzzes, you look away from it, it breaks your attention so much so that it takes like two to three minutes before you're focused back on the road. So we talk about cell phones almost being like a uh a public health issue when it comes to our ability to focus and pay attention. Since you guys have implemented this policy, what are you seeing out of your students as far as their ability to focus perhaps for longer periods of time? Are you seeing a difference in their attention spans and their ability to focus on the work going on in the classroom?

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Yeah, I really find that they're way more willing to have conversations. Yeah, so communication. Yeah, just communication in general. They're they're more comfortable having those conversations. And you know, you're I feel like years ago when I used to say turn and talk, there'd be nothing, and now it's totally different. When they used to come in and you know be on their phones before class started, they wouldn't start their warm-up and get started, and now they know they shouldn't even have them when they walk in the classroom beyond them. So now you walk in and they're just starting their warm-up as soon as the bell rings. So I feel like it takes away that distraction. And for us, especially someone who does inquiry-based learning, the conversations are everything. And now they're having them to like the next level.

SPEAKER_06 22:46

Right. Nice to the next level. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

So they're actually turning and talking when you say turn and talk.

SPEAKER_04 22:52

Yeah, I can't even imagine trying to do anything school related when you could just have your phone right in your lap and you're sitting scrolling. Right. Nobody would be doing anything.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

And you're sitting next to someone trying to have a conversation directly by the teacher, and they're on their phone. So what do you do, right? And now that's just all taken away.

SPEAKER_04 23:09

Right, because they're not for so for the middle school, they're all taken away. I mean, they are present, they don't really have to hide them. They're little pencil case.

SPEAKER_06 23:18

Like, are they on in the case? So that do they turn them off?

SPEAKER_04 23:21

We we tell them to turn the volume off so they're like not beeping, but I don't have a ton because all the other kids, for the most part, that they know also there's nobody texting you. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe a parent. Yeah, like they're all I mean, they especially in sixth grade. Eighth grade has a little less compliance, but that's eighth graders. Yeah, yeah. My students in seventh grade, they're not willing to get them taken away because if you violate the policy, it's the exact same thing. And the office is closed and it is locked up in a safe. Even if it's a twelve hundred dollar phone. Yeah. The qu but to your question, is it what what am I seeing? You know, there's still the phone and I'll call it screen addiction problem that really that does isn't changed because they're still going home and doing this. But the game changer is there's it's not just that I can have them engaged in the classroom, but all the drama that happens during the school day. Yes. Like the infractions of cyberbullying, taking pictures of each other, posting things, threatening each other. I mean, uh this altercation, blah, blah, blah, isn't happening. So you have to figure out where that they have to physically see each other.

SPEAKER_05 24:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:31

Um, so that has been a game changer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:34

It's more, it's more that than it is like, are you scrolling through well, they don't do Facebook, but TikToks or whatever.

SPEAKER_06 24:41

It's Facebook for the old people. Yeah, that's like us. Sounds like My Facebook. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Yeah. I think I just I think it's really interesting to see if as you continue on through this to sort of see if students are actually learning in school how to disengage from a screen and how that may carry over into other spaces outside of school. We all, as people, have screen addiction problems and we're too addicted to our screens. Facts. But if we can teach and set a precedent in class that it's okay to disengage from a screen, maybe it carries over at home and kids start finding other they're making choices for a little less screen time, a little more sleep time. That was always a big concern I had as a teacher. Kids coming in like zombies, and you ask them what happened, and they're like, Oh, I was up texting all night and or on a screen. Or on a screen, right? Gaming or something.

SPEAKER_04 25:40

It's dumbfounding to me how many kids say, I'm so tired because I was up till and they love to like kind of brag about it, especially in middle school. Like, I was up till two playing, you know, fill in the blank. And I'm like, wow. I'm so glad that you're also not doing more of it, you know, during at lunch and yeah, during the day. Like your neuropathways, like, let's not even get into like the science of you know, if we had more time, we should get into it.

SPEAKER_03 26:08

Yes, yes, episode 2.0 Yes. How cell phones are affecting your brain. Your brain. Yeah. Neuropathways and screen. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 26:18

Right now, we're gonna electrify our neuropathways and transition to our hot takes segment. This is our segment where we're gonna do something wild and crazy. I mean, not that wild and crazy, but a little bit relative to this topic, we're gonna invite all of our hosts and our co-hosts if they have a hot take relative to this to this topic. And I've been sitting here thinking about my experiences. Like I used to be the prior to your very excellent practices and policies in Davidale schools, I used to take some cell phones and like have them in my desk, like no safe. And I wouldn't do that anymore. But in thinking about basket. Yeah, like a little basket full of cell phones. Um, my hot take is no cell phones during lunch. No cell phones during lunch. Like have the kids, and you know, again, back in my day in 1872, there were no cell phones. You ate, you, you conferred with the people around you, you sat with your friends, you actually had real conversations. Sometimes I see like tables full of young people out in the world, and they're they're sitting next to each other on their phones.

SPEAKER_04 27:24

Every single kid's on their phone.

SPEAKER_06 27:25

Every single kid's on a phone. It's so normal. Now, it's and as we've we've normalized that, right? And what might the lunchroom experience be? It might be a little headache at first, but what joy and connection, and even just the the the science and joy of like eating your food slowly, right? And enjoying the meal in company. So I say, I know my own children will hate me. I love you all. Uh, no cell phones during lunch. Katie, what do you say?

SPEAKER_03 27:53

Yeah, so my hot take is for teachers and districts that haven't set these like policies that sort of take it away from the teacher. So the teacher is still feeling like they're doing this like battle and it feeling like it's a battle and a fight every day. Um, and so my hot take is what if phone-free zones were like a liberation from technology? Right? Like, I don't I I feel like this is so like out there, like liberate yourself from technology. Um but like kids are addicted to cell phones. I mean, adults are too. And if we framed our class as a place where students can fully unplug, focus, breathe without a world where students and teachers are never offline, maybe this space can feel like a place where you can liberate yourself from the screen.

SPEAKER_06 28:44

Liberation with that. Jay, what about you, brother?

SPEAKER_02 28:46

Yeah, I just I want to elevate as a hot take something that's happened that you mentioned earlier that's happening in in Avondale. And I think there's two keys to approaching this issue that sometimes it's a trap we fall in and we fail at, which is why we keep coming back to this issue. And there's two C's I want to highlight communication and consistency. You mentioned both uh that's the hot take is set a policy, communicate the heck out of it over and over to everybody, and then be consistent with it. You are in year two with this. How many times have we set policies around this? They don't last two weeks, they don't last two days or two hours. There was a commitment to do something for an entire year and then repeat that and see what adjustments we can make and go into a second year. And that's where I think you guys are really starting to see some traction here. Communicate and be consistent for longer than uh a school year. Give it a shot and come back on our podcast for season two, and we'll talk about the ways in which we're all liberated from technology on a technological based platform and podcast.

SPEAKER_03 29:58

But at least then you can listen to it.

SPEAKER_02 30:00

But just checking in, Jay, are you saying C's are good?

SPEAKER_06 30:03

C's equal degrees.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

Yeah, I just want to say Jay would say.

SPEAKER_06 30:07

C's equal degrees. So we'll leave it to our guests. Any hot takes? So the so and thank you so much for sharing uh these wonderful ideas, tips, and strategies with our teacher listening audience. Uh we hope that you glean some knowledge and insights. I certainly did in this episode, but do you have any lasting or parting hot takes?

SPEAKER_04 30:25

I guess if I understand hot takes right, I think mine would be teach uh kids about the science of like screen addiction. It should be in health public health. Yeah, it should be a good idea. Like all state of Michigan studies have to do health. Talk to me. But I would put that in there as a like science and like, yeah, can we just snap some of the things? Yeah, give her some snaps. Yeah, mic snap. Like it it should be taught unilaterally across schools, starting in sixth grade.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Yeah. I agree with that. That's a good hot take. I think mine would be. I talked to some elementary school teachers actually about this a few years ago, is banning the smart watches because they're starting to see them in elementary schools right now. And you know, kids will try to text on theirs and stuff. But they'll try during class to, you know, draw a little bit on there. But smartwatches too at all levels. Too distracting. Too distracting.

SPEAKER_06 31:20

That's pretty hot. Apple and Android would not be pleased with this podcast. But they're not sponsoring it.

SPEAKER_03 31:27

I was just gonna say they're not sponsoring it. They're not sponsors. This is brought to you by Oakland Schools.

SPEAKER_06 31:31

Right. And my main man Jay is gonna take us out. All right, yes.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Uh reiterate, we have no sponsors. That's right. We make no money from sponsors. It's all about for the love of teachers.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

That's right. Steven Sneed, Trademark Violates on various episodes.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

All right. Well, that'll do it for today. That is uh that is our episode uh 1.0 on cell phones. I think we've all made a determination that we're gonna need a 2.0 to continue this conversation. Yeah, a huge thank you to Vanessa and Jennifer both for joining us today. I mean, by the end of this episode, you were adding sound effects and snaps into the mics.

SPEAKER_03 32:11

Giving better hot takes to the case.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Giving better hot takes than like.

SPEAKER_06 32:14

I feel like am I being replaced as one of the hosts here by the CJ.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

Maybe we do need to prepare for this.

SPEAKER_06 32:19

Don't worry. Oh, look at I got some riz. I'm gonna tell my kids today. Someone said I teach medical school. You gotta say the words. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:27

Well, we hope that all of you out there listening will join us next time. We're gonna be uh diving into a conversation around ways in which kids can lead us in their learning right there from the classroom. Right. Kids leading us in their learning. And for this episode, we're gonna be joined by uh ELA high school teacher Peter Hahn. That's my guy. Yeah, he's a lot of people's guy. He's my guy too. Yeah, Pete Pete's my guy too. Uh Peter Hahn from Oak Park High School and Casa. Uh, so we hope you make some time out of your busy schedules to join us again. In the meantime, don't forget to follow or subscribe to Teaching Tomorrow wherever you get your podcasts. Smash the like and leave us a rating or comment. It does help other educators find these conversations. If you liked what you heard, please share this episode with a colleague who could use a little inspiration during the hectic school year that is now upon us. Until next time, keep teaching, keep learning, and keep building the tomorrow your students can believe in. Because here at Teaching Tomorrow, we believe in you. See you next time. Bye bye.

Oakland Schools Learning Design Consultant Dr. Andrea Zellner, self described A.I. passionate skeptic, joins Jay, Katie, and Steven to dive deep into the mysteries of Artificial Intelligence (AI) use in schools. From thinking critically about the careful use of AI in classrooms, to positioning students to learn and lead the charge with this phenomenon, Dr. Zellner provides insightful tips to teachers and leaders alike. 

SPEAKER_06 0:14

All right, good afternoon, good evening, good morning, wherever you happen to listen to us. This is the Teaching Tomorrow Podcast. We got another good one for you all. I feel like we're setting the bar pretty high of the essence, but you listeners, please let us know. Feedback is good. Today we are going to talk about AI, not a one-sauce. Not a sauce. Not a one. Not a one.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

And we in education love our acronyms. Yeah, we do. So we are also not talking about adaptive inquiry or appreciative inquiry or adaptive instruction.

SPEAKER_05 0:53

Those things are later later episodes. We have future episodes. Future episodes, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 0:59

But today is AI Artificial Intelligence. What do we do about AI? I am one of your esteemed hosts, Dr. Stephen Sneed. Uh I'll let my co-hosts introduce themselves.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Yeah. Hi, everyone. Welcome back. Katie Morrison, uh math consultant for Oakland Schools.

SPEAKER_05 1:15

And Jay Hafner, literacy consultant, Oakland Schools.

SPEAKER_06 1:19

That is our merry band of hosts. We have a very special guest today. I don't know why I used a fake French voice there. Someone will get mad at me, I know. I apologize.

SPEAKER_05 1:32

Especially because it wasn't a great question.

SPEAKER_06 1:34

It wasn't a great, it wasn't a great. I'm not countering. I'm not an important speaker. I apologize. Dr. Andrea Zellner, who I feel like she's like a woman for all seasons, right? She has literacy expertise, she has project-based learning expertise. And my girl, because she is my girl, we go back. She definitely has AI expertise. Do you have A1 expertise? Like, do you do A1 steak sauce?

SPEAKER_02 1:57

I don't even like A1 sauce.

SPEAKER_06 1:58

She doesn't. Oh, so we're clear on that. She's not going to talk about that. So we're going to bring her in here in a bit. But as we get started on this topic of like AI artificial intelligence. So for those of you who know me in my background, my time in schools, I was a high school English teacher. And so I love writing. That was my jazz in schools. And so my I really like, I appreciate the opportunity to have a conversation about how do we engage students in authentic writing tasks and sort of reimagining that space of what that might look like. Because of course, if you give a kid an assignment, right, a prompt like, hey, write a five-paragraph essay, they can very much go into AI and crank out some a lot of great, great things and bring that back to class. And I know a lot of us are struggling with like, well, is that cheating? Is that not cheating? I love good old-fashioned, like literal handwriting, like handwriting in the classroom. But then what I've also discovered is that when I'm using uh various AI large language model tools, that my writing skill is necessary to get the thing that I want the AI to do. So AI is helping me to become a better, more precise writer in thinking in order to successfully engage with it. So I say use it as a tool in a way in classroom instruction to not uh obfuscate student writing, but like to sharpen their their writing and really that thinking skill. Um so I see lots of really great applications. So don't I say to folks, don't be scared of it. Don't be scared of it. It's not a thing. Don't don't put it in the closet and fight it, uh, but really try to think about how we can use it. Jay, what do you say?

SPEAKER_05 3:49

Yeah, I mean, I was just gonna pick up on that exactly. Don't be let's not be fearful of it. Let's before we make judgments on it, let's do the best we can to learn uh ways in which we can use it as a tool, uh, and then we can provide students opportunities to learn how to use it as a as a tool as well. Uh I often think about though, like where where does the fear of of AI come from? And I think there's some very real things uh that we need to take into consideration both as a as a society and the way uh new technologies have been developed, both for the betterment of humanity and the destruction of humanity. Um I think a lot of us like real dark hair to show my show. Well, I'm gonna show my age here. I'm I'm a Gen Xer. Okay, and I grew up on films in which AI.

SPEAKER_06 4:40

Film, what's that?

SPEAKER_05 4:40

Yeah, films. Films. Uh I'm referring to uh Terminator uh in Terminator 2 as films.

SPEAKER_06 4:46

Was it like on a real crank in the back door?

SPEAKER_05 4:49

The projector actually made the clicking sound in the movie theater. But things like you know, Terminator, Blade Runner, we were inundated with like imagery of like AI that was going to just like control all of humanity. And I well, so I I just want to acknowledge that I think there's genuine reasons for for concern, but we have to beat back our our concern and not let it become a barrier to an opportunity that we might be able to provide in our in our profession and and for students.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Yeah, I mean, it definitely feels like a tidal wave that's like coming and has hit some places, hitting more more strongly. And yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think it's definitely something we have to like navigate through, but I definitely feel the like unease, especially when I think about like the inequity and like this creating like further gaps. Um so yeah, I think it's real. And I am so grateful that Dr. Andrea Zellner is gonna be here today to help us answer the question what do educators do about AI?

SPEAKER_06 5:58

What do we do?

SPEAKER_01 5:58

What do we do about it? So we have the incredibly talented Dr. Andrea Zellner, a learning design consultant with Oakland Schools. Andrea is a proud former high school biology and English teacher and holds doctorates in ed tech and ed psych. She is a park enthusiast, a mushroom forager, and a teacher consultant for the National Writing Project. So, Andrea, welcome. Thank you. Thanks for joining us. She is a lady of particular skills.

SPEAKER_05 6:26

Doctor Doctor, Andrea Zellmer.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

One doctor. Just one doctorate. Look, let me tell you, one is enough. One is enough, right?

SPEAKER_06 6:36

If you if you got multiple PhDs or ADs out there, hey, shout out to you, right? We we just got one over here.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Yep. Um well your doctor, Dr. Snees. Yeah, one though. One. Oh, one and doctor. Yeah, one and done in the room.

SPEAKER_06 6:50

No more dissertations.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

So, Andrea, I want to start us off. So you describe yourself as a passionate skeptic to AI. So can you share with us and all of our listeners what most excites you about AI in schools and then what most worries you about AI in schools?

SPEAKER_02 7:08

Thank you, Katie. So I am gonna start with some definitions because I think it's important to be clear about what we're talking about. Artificial intelligence is a marketing term to quote Emily Bender and Alex Hannah. It is pretty meaningless. And the the metaphor that I like to hang on to when I think about AI is when we say transportation, what do you mean? Do you mean walking? Do you mean riding a bike? Do you mean flying? It's uh talking about AI is pretty meaningless and it doesn't help us further the conversation. So I think when we hear about the fearfulness and and the trepidation, I think it's because it's such a loose term that people don't know where to hang on to. So the the other thing to name is that um Justin Reich at MIT talks about how AI and specifically generative AI, which is those large language models that we see, were an arrival technology to schools. And so when that's think back because we are Gen X, we recall when kids got computers, when interactive whiteboards entered the classroom. Right. One of us is in here.

SPEAKER_06 8:18

One of us is not like you know, it's all right. We're very inclusive here at teaching. We love you, Katie.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

So when interactive whiteboards came into the classroom, schools could say, we're not ready to make that expenditure right now. We'll train our teachers in two years. That's not the case here. Yeah, yeah, it was the same with computers, it was the same with cell phones and smartphones. So this arrival of this technology and what it's capable of uh really hit like a tsunami, especially for those of us who are teachers of writers, because suddenly this uh text extruding, synthetic text extruding machine, as Emily Bender, back to Emily Bender and Alex Hannah call it, um, is making a really great approximation of what we're asking our kids to do. So there's also a whole range of predictive AI tools, which I think also come with their own threats and excitements with them. And so we can talk about either one. Most people are talking about generative AI. And so I'll start there. With generative AI, I like to think about it in terms of how it might be an assistive technology for students who might have barriers to their learning, to their motivation, um, to getting organized. There's a lot of opportunity here in terms of how it might turn into assistive intelligence rather than artificial, thinking about it as artificial intelligence. And for those who are interested, uh CAST, which is the group that supports the universal design for learning uh guidelines, has a lot of supportive content around this idea of assistive technology. So we can get into that if that's a a place you want to go. For me, the biases uh in AI are really what worry me the most. Right. This was these large language models were trained on a huge amount of data that was not freely given, that was taken from people's intellectual property, including our artists, our writers, our best thinkers. All of that data was taken. And now they are using their large language models to track our attention and keep us focused. All of these large language models are incredibly costly, both in terms of human cost, environmental costs, water costs, the data centers, and the noise pollution that they produce, not to mention the human labor that went into training them that came on the backs of most third world countries.

SPEAKER_06 11:01

That's true. That's true.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

That to me is an ethical conundrum that I believe that students want to grapple with, and I believe that because I've been working with students who are grappling with these questions and they're very concerned about it. We had uh a group of students that came to one of our AI opportunities that we provided at Oakland schools, and they were the ones talking about these things through their own research. So it was concerning for them. There was a recent Atlantic article where a student said AI is ruining my education. So I think that there is some concerns. So when my one caution here, and I don't want to belabor the drawbacks, I just know that the sort of the hype that is coming into our schools and the immense pressure for these technology companies to recoup the investment on these large language models, because again, they're expensive. They haven't figured out how to make money on it, and they are looking at education to recoup those costs. And so I just like to put that into the ether because there are also additional harms that we're seeing to children.

SPEAKER_03 12:14

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

These chatbots have sexualized children, these chatbots have contributed to suicide of children, and right now there's no support or legislation to rein in what's happening. What we're hearing is if you don't jump on this train, your kids will not be ready for the future. I'm not sure I believe that right now.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Yeah. Oh, yeah. So I was gonna say, so Andrea, so in light of all of that, you know, those things that you just mentioned, what are the questions that districts should be leaning into? Like knowing this tidal wave, this tsunami, like what should districts be thinking about and considering and questioning right now?

SPEAKER_02 13:00

When I work with district teams, I always start with what are we valuing as an educational community? Because if we know what our values are, we can make wise decisions about what we're inviting into the space, that sacred space between teachers and students. What AI does is it can get in the middle of that. The students feel like they're not being truly taught because the teachers are using AI to support their planning or to create materials or to even provide feedback. In grade, it's real bad at math. Large language models are bad at math. Do not use it for math. Okay. There is AI tools that there are AI tools that are better, but do not use Chat GBT for math, okay?

SPEAKER_00 13:44

It's super bad at grading. Yes, I was gonna say grade and solve problems, but I have thought in my hot take, I'm gonna shed some idea about it might be.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Please don't do that. I always use Wolfram Alpha for that. Oh, yeah? Yeah, I love that tool. Okay. So, but um uh yeah, it's uh what was I talking about? Now I lost my train of thought. Oh, districts, like, so we start with our values. We have to start with our values because what are we doing? I think AI and generative AI especially brings these sort of um existential questions. What's the meaning of writing now? If I have this machine over here that can do it in a passable way that still brings meaning to me, it can create meaning for us because we're human and we're, and whenever we hear language, Sherry Turkle talks about this a lot. Whenever we hear language or see language from a machine, beer we're so hardwired for language. That is how we coordinate our communities that we are attracted to that and we think we give it more meaning than maybe the fact that it's just probabilities, right? So if we start their values, what do we want for our kids? What do we want for this relationship between teachers and students? How do we want them to grow? And most districts have already done this work. What's our portrait of a graduate? How do we want the end game of this work that we're doing with kids to look? And how do we want them to show up in the world? And so knowing those purposes for schooling uh become really important and can be the center of the decisions we're making, not only around generative AI tools or predictive AI tools, but for any educational technology tools, because this is just another part of the general trend of educational technology companies trying to come into schools to make money off of us. And so that I think that that's that we want to be thoughtful about where we're putting our public dollars, uh, where making sure that we have uh actual data that show that there is a return on the investment of what we're doing with our time, our attention, and our dollars. And that it's really in the service of what we want for our kids. So that's where I want, I can't say what works for you and what doesn't work for you. I have my own code of ethics around generative AI tools and predictive AI tools that I use to guide my individual decisions. And what I would, if I were in charge of everything, I would hope that everybody finds that code of ethics for themselves, um, knowing the full picture before they engage. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:18

So yeah. So to I'm interested and curious about what you talked about with this like tidal wave that's coming or that's here.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

And and it does Andrea calls it tsunami.

SPEAKER_03 16:29

A tsunami, sorry.

SPEAKER_05 16:30

Yeah, it is, right? It's e it's even bigger. And the one thing we know about tsunamis is they they happen fast and they come out of nowhere, and oftentimes with technological developments uh throughout our careers and and and prior to to that, uh, it it has seemed like technology moves faster than we as educators are able to keep up with and and get a hold of. So I'm curious, like right now, as we're sort of still in these like nascent stages of trying to figure out how to use AI uh in a in a meaningful, productive way in the classroom, what are some of the things you're seeing right now on the ground from teachers? What are they, you know, what are they communicating to you? Are they are they optimistic about the the opportunity as a tool for students? Are they sort of fearful? Are they thinking it's something that they're sort of stepping back from? What are you seeing in your conversations on the ground right now, teachers' approach to AI?

SPEAKER_02 17:31

So it runs the gamut. There is that fear, there is that overwhelm that comes with it, the concerns about cheating. Um, I think most teachers are entering, especially with Gemini launching a number of free tools into Google Classroom in most of our districts in the state and the country. Our Google schools. And so Gemini tools are now sitting in Google Classroom and with a lot of efficiencies there. Uh and so that can be incredibly supportive because uh the work of teaching has long been more than the 24-hour day. So it is nice to get those efficiency gains and to be thoughtful about it. Um, for instance, thinking about tax leveling. So if I have a student who needs uh a text that is appropriate for their level so they can engage in the learning, I can do that very quickly with generative AI tools. And so um I think all those efficiencies are really important to teachers. From there, then the shift happens, which is then they start looking at how their students are using it. And the huge concern there is that students are taking whatever assignments and dumping it into a large language model and then getting an answer and then submitting that as their own work. I'm not sure how much of that is truly going on. When we talk to the students, I mean it's going on. I joke that we're we have students turning in assignments generated by AI that are then graded by AI and no humans were harmed in the process of this learning that is happening. I'm sure it has happened. I have no doubt in my mind that it has happened and continues to happen. Many students, when they talk about AI, though, will talk about valuing their learning. They're in school most of their awaken hours. No one wants to be bored.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

People will give themselves electric shocks to avoid being bored. So this idea that we're just gonna offload things is kind of, I don't totally buy it.

SPEAKER_03 19:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

What I see is that when students are making a decision to use generative AI instead of use their own brains, they're either feeling a sense of low self-efficacy. I don't feel competent in this skill, so I need to offload it to this brilliant tool over here that's gonna do it better than me, better than I could ever do it. And then the other reason is that it has no meaning for them. We do give a lot of meaningless tasks to students.

SPEAKER_06 20:13

We get hot. Well, now we turn up the gas. Yeah, yeah. We are.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

So do I want to sit and do a worksheet? No. Do I want to write a really boring essay about the themes of Romeo and Juliet? No. I didn't do that. No one has ever wanted to do that. Talk to Stephen about that.

SPEAKER_06 20:32

Yeah, the romance novels.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

No one has ever wanted to do that. Are we creating students, especially in secondary? Are we inviting them to be the best learners they can be and valuing their voice? Where is that happening? When do they get the chance to do that? We we prescribe so much. And so to me, if we're seeing high levels of this sort of what they call AI cheating, it is not trying to AI proof and put the people who always tell me, Oh, I heard that you just put words in white and then it shows up, like say the word elephant is 15 times and then it shows up in the essay, and then I know they cheated. Okay. I'm not interested in a cat and mouse game because that is just breaking the trust of the relationship with between the learner and the teacher. And if we don't have trust, we cannot risk learning. So I am not interested in any of that. And also, PSA, do not use AI detectors. I do not care what turnerdin.com tells you. They cannot detect whether something is written with AI. It is a marketing strategy.

SPEAKER_06 21:33

So kind of on that, and so here's where I'm like, I I don't know. I think we're like kind of in this gray sort of space. I I did a poll of uh some district leaders across state a little while in informal, unscientific, but the vast majority of them said, uh, because I asked a question, has your district developed policies around the use of AI in district? And most said no. And that kind of made me scared a little bit. I'm like, ooh, so we know that at least on the adult and the professional end, like teachers are using AI in various applications and processes, but there's no policies that are guiding or protecting. And that kind of that kind of gave me like a little knot in my stomach. So like for a teacher out there, or even like a school leader out there, right? School leaders, they tell me, Oh, yeah, I just put it my parent newsletter and GPT and da-da-da. And I'm like, ooh, yikes. Um what what would what do we do or what could we do? Or what wait, I'm sorry, my cognitive coaching. What might be some tennis? What might be some strategies we can think about or things we can think about if I work in a district that hasn't yet developed any AI policies for use, but yet these tools are out there?

SPEAKER_02 22:50

So we've provided some resources from Open Schools. The first are some sample guidance. So we make a distinction between guidance and policy. Sometimes there's a role for guidance, and sometimes there's a role for policy. So for individual teachers, it would be more in the guidance bucket, um, just because of the legal implications of a policy. And so we have sample syllabi language, we have sample guidance documents from our county, and a number of other resources in there for teachers who are thinking about this with their with their students. The other project I want to lift is our Writing Our Futures project-based learning uh project that we did in the spring. And I just got word that one of the teachers is continuing with this project this year.

SPEAKER_03 23:36

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

So that's a we had a pilot last year. We were able to get some funding, and we used a tool called writingpartners.net, which is a social annotation site that invites students to write, and then you sort of have two window panes. So this was an ELA classrooms, and on the side, the the commenting features were there, but they could use AI to use to support that commenting, and they call them writing partners. And so we were using this tool. And the driving question was how might we influence ethical and innovative uses of AI in our school? And the kids eventually presented to the stakeholders in their own districts about what they thought through their investigation into generative AI tools, they created the guidance. So if we are if we are serious about it are y'all listening to this out there, you better write that one down.

SPEAKER_04 24:35

Dr.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Zellner is just like hitting us with all of that.

SPEAKER_04 24:38

Dropping the hot takes right now.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

If we are serious about building digital citizens who can push back against misinformation, who can push back against disinformation, who understand how to live in our society, in our communities, they should be the ones saying, here's what we believe about what ethical and innovative use looks like. And when we have those conversations with them, the things that they do would blow your mind. My favorite example is one of these schools that I worked with. The teacher had a self-contained classroom for ELA. So that meant that every child in there had an IEP that had learning barriers. And one of the invitations on their road to answering this question was to create a chat bot, just uh sort of paper prototype it. What would you do? What problem would you solve? And those students created an IEP bot that would suggest accommodations for them so they could advocate for themselves in their meeting with their teachers, social workers, and everyone providing them support. That gives me chills. That's what happens when we invite students into the conversation. When there's trust between the teacher and the students to investigate this phenomenon together, then the real magic happens. Then you get the innovative uses because they're thinking of those fun ways to do it instead of us running around and checking social media, what cool thing, what cool thing, what cool thing. It's not about that. If this is a general purpose technology as these companies are suggesting to us, then we should figure that out together based on our own values. And if we never invite students into that conversation, we'll never get there. And they're the ones who are lifting some of these issues.

SPEAKER_05 26:31

Yeah, I think, you know, and and you said something earlier. You said put it in the hands of students, and students will they'll they'll blow our minds because that's what students do. They will blow our minds. They won't blow up the world with AI. They're go, they're gonna be the ones in the classrooms working with teachers that are gonna provide the opportunity for the best path forward and how we maximize and use this tool for learning. And so I wanna I wanna talk about ways in which AI might serve that development outside of the classroom as well. Are there are there opportunities for students to use and develop and learn around AI skills in a in a way within the school that's outside of the classroom environment, in these after-school opportunities, in these opportunities that come from uh from companies and partners and community organizations? Where are we seeing some of the work that's being developed outside of the classroom for students?

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Aaron Powell I think the my favorite project is MIT Rays, which does a lot of work with helping students understand the technology behind the large language models and helps them develop their own vision of how they might be used. That's an open source project. And so I tend to gravitate towards those. Although code.org has some interesting for younger students to play around with those ideas and and more in that creative space. To me, that's where the innovation comes, is when we can create with it rather than just like putting in a prompt and getting something cool out. It's it's fancy, it's exciting. And then you kind of go, okay, now what? Now what else can I do with this? And so I think to me, that's kind of the most interesting thing. Uh, but it ends up being around that like personal relationship and understanding like the benefits and drawbacks, the way that it hallucinates, double checking the sources, all of that digital citizenship that I was mentioning earlier. And so that's where I really see uh the impact is focusing more on creation with it. One caveat, however, is that Common Sense Media in Stanford did a study and feel free to look this up, but they did a risk assessment around generative AI chatbots. So when AI first came out, uh, we got really excited, like you could talk to George Washington if you're doing a project on George Washington and all these things. And what we found is that the risk is way too high. And so common sense media, which is a nonprofit and the Stanford researchers basically are advising that there are no safe chatbots for children under 18. And so if we're doing work with students in these spaces, we're wanting to look for educational technology companies that are developed, co-developed with educators that have some some walled gardens for our kids. So I don't always advocate for walled gardens. Sometimes I I think it's can be too s we schoolitize things too much. Sometimes we're kind of a vulture leaning over. What are you doing? I just fear that the risks are too high. Yeah, yeah. I I just at this point when we have the sycophancy issue and and some of these mental health crises that people are experiencing, it is very real, it is very dangerous. And I'm not interested in experience experimenting on kids with this. And I think that that's our role as educators in this conversation is because our interest in it is in protecting and um helping our students grow. And we're not interested in that bottom line in the same way that these tech companies are.

SPEAKER_06 30:15

Well, you mentioned danger. Speaking of danger, we're gonna get real hot right now for our hot takes as we begin to slowly close the show. Doctors are gonna hang out for our hot take. I'm sure you got several.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

I was gonna say you get to close us out. Yeah, you get to close us out with a hot take.

SPEAKER_06 30:32

I I'll I'll kick us off here um with my hot take. And and I and I get it. Like teachers, you know, sh shout out to all my teachers. Listen, I love you all. I know we're all busy, overstressed. We're looking for something that kind of takes work away, something that that makes things easier. I I get that. Huge caution when it comes to using AI to grade student work, and like, and when I say grade, like to put a grade in a grade book that will carry consequence for a student. Extreme caution. I'm almost at a point just like, don't do that. And here's why, because we know that AI hallucinates, AI makes mistakes, but but more importantly, I think if you, the teacher, remove yourself from the evaluation of student work, you, the practitioner, become less knowledgeable about the students' strengths and their assets and their areas for need because you're off offloading that work to the AI. So if there's any work that you're trying to offload, I would say don't do that. Like don't use the AI for grading and totally remove yourself from that process. Maybe it can help you identify some things, but you, the adult uh practitioner who has the relationship with the kid and the trust as well as the content uh area expertise, you have to be a part of that process. Don't use AI to replace you in grading. That's my hot take. Katie, what about you?

SPEAKER_01 31:58

Yeah, yeah. I feel like we need to like throw a plug for like best grading practices. Open schools can help with that, right? Um you also have me thinking about like the pyramid where evaluation is at the top, because like that's the deepest level of like true understanding. And so if you're not evaluating uh the work coming from your students, you're missing that type of level. Um so I felt like I had a hot take, and then Andrea has dropped some knowledge that I'm like, ooh, I don't even know if I want my hot take to be out there. So what I was going to say, and then have further dialogue with Andrea after this, um, was really helping our students like become digital citizens, become digitally literate. Our teachers need support in that, our administrators need to provide teachers' support for that. Um, and really thinking about like how can we use what might be produced from some of these like generative AI tools to then have students evaluate the product and use the knowledge and sense making that they have to rely on whether or not the solution maybe in math is true. And so I think about like maybe like so often in math, we like pull students like work and then we use that as like the example and like find the error. Maybe the AI tool can be the new students that we like find the error for, which is really having us like synthesize and make sense of like products that come out rather than relying it on as like the the solution.

SPEAKER_06 33:22

The solution, okay. Hot Jay.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Jay Jay, what you got?

SPEAKER_05 33:25

What you got, Jay? Well, I got as you said, this is our we're moving into danger, the danger zone here of hot time. Did you know my middle name is danger? I did not know that. It's not, but now I do it's not now. Jay Danger Hafter.

SPEAKER_06 33:39

It sounds great.

SPEAKER_05 33:40

Google it.

SPEAKER_06 33:41

I I Gemini it? No. Maybe Gemini. AI it. Maybe it'll be it. It'll give me the wrong answer. I don't want to.

SPEAKER_05 33:46

I'm leaning into I'm leaning into creativity. Um, and and really leveraging what we what we can do with students when we put them in opportunities to create and and opportunities to co-create as as adults with the students. So I would I would ask a little call to action here is at some point this school year, develop something within your within your curriculum, your teaching practice, in which you are engaging students in creating something using AI. And then I would challenge the teachers to do this with them, co-create with them. But it's not just, we're not going to look at only the end product of whatever it is we're asking them to create. While we go through this process, we're going to interact with students about what it is that they're seeing in the process of using AI to create something from scratch. How do they feel about it? Do they feel like they have ownership over the thing they're creating? Are they happy with the outcomes of what it is that they're creating? And if we do that as teachers and we co-create with them next to them, and we have a shared mutual experience of what it is we're creating. Maybe it's a short story in an English class, maybe it's a model of some kind in a science class. There's a lot of opportunities wherever you are to create something from scratch. I would I would urge all teachers to spend some time this year, co-create with your students and examine the process as much as we examine the end product, and let's see where we go from there and how we can build and improve on those skills as we move forward.

SPEAKER_06 35:27

Hot takes, hot takes all. We're gonna leave our last hot take to our esteemed guest, Dr. Andrezelna. What's your last hot take? You you've already put some hot takes out there in the atmosphere. So last one.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

So uh bear with me. First, I'll just put another plug-in for the Writing Our Futures unit that is free, open to anyone. You can borrow it, adapt it, modify it for your students if you're taking up Jay's uh call to action. I just want to read a quote from Eric Salvaggio because I think it's a beautiful summary of what we were talking about. So he's discussing large language models in the way that it's a dilution of billions of people, like adding water to sugar until the sweetness dissolves. Writing and lots of art and other things humans do can give you a bit of a taste of the someone behind it. With AI, that sugar is rinsed out of the mug. Uh, my point is that translating your language through AI is a lost opportunity to cultivate the sweetness within you. With your own words connecting to the words of others, we can use stories for what they are for, which is to link ourselves with the stories of the people around us. I want everyone to know you are doing enough. Even if the story feels like a tsunami or feels like you're behind, you are doing enough. Create with your students, build relationships with your students, and that is all you need to do.

SPEAKER_03 36:53

And that's like all the stuff.

SPEAKER_05 36:54

And I think, I think, I think on that, I love it. That that's gonna wrap us up for today. I I don't know if we need to enter. Andrea is the rap. Yeah, that is Andrea is the rap. Uh Google that. Andrea is the rap. Uh huge, huge thank you to Dr. Andrea Zellner for joining us today and uh spending time unpacking this uh artificial intelligence AI, the role that it plays in the classroom. Uh, we hope you found something here to inspire your own practice uh and spark some new ideas in the uh in the classroom. We hope you'll join us next time. We're going to be diving into a conversation uh that I think is also really important and uh sort of front of center right now. Why are so many people talking about dyslexia? Uh it's an interesting conversation in this, yeah, in this moment. Uh, and there's a lot that's being done about it, and there's a lot of implications around it. And uh, we're going to have a uh a guest that I think is gonna offer quite a bit of uh of knowledge and resources around this topic. That should be a really good episode. I think it's gonna be a really good episode. I would be interested in listening to that one. Well, then if you want to listen to it, Dr. Sneed, I would suggest that you subscribe to the Teaching Uh Tomorrow podcast wherever you find your digital entertainment. Uh, please make sure you do that. Uh leave us a rating or comment. It does help other educators find these conversations. Smash the like. And share this episode or other episodes with colleagues who might need a little inspiration uh for the year ahead. We we hope we're providing a little bit of hope and inspiration uh in these challenging times. For now, keep teaching, keep learning, and keep building the tomorrow your students can believe in because here at Teaching Tomorrow, we believe in you. See you next time. Bye bye, y'all.

Oak Park Schools’ Assistant Superintendent Shana Holden-Murphy joins Jay, Katie, and Steven Jay to tackle the challenge of chronic absenteeism. We explore the roots of student disengagement, the role of family and community partnerships, and strategies that help transform the school into a school house–a place where every student feels they belong and want to show up.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Welcome back to Teaching Tomorrow, a podcast about everyday inspiration for everyday teachers. Yes, I love that. Educators. Yes. I am one of your hosts, Katie Morrison, and I'm joined by the amazing Jay Hafner.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

Good afternoon. Happy teen here.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Stephen Sneed.

SPEAKER_03 0:34

Good evening if you listen to this at night. Or good morning. Or good morning. Or good middle of the night. Middle of the day. Who knows?

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Whenever you're joining us. And Steven, I've heard you introduce yourself as Steve as well. So like we're throwing double name takes here. All of us. Yes. Yes. So today we are digging into a question that has sparked dialogue, debate, and even a little desperation, I think, for so many of our schools and educators.

SPEAKER_04 0:59

Did you hit us with the three D's?

SPEAKER_01 1:01

I did. I was really going for that, like a literature. English. Shane will join me too. Shayna's got that math background. We can do it all. We don't fit into the little boxes. We we could do it all. Yes. But really thinking about like how do we get kids to come to school? We know that just in the state of Michigan, MDE recently reached, uh released a report where 30% of students are chronically absent across our Michigan schools.

SPEAKER_04 1:35

Hurts my heart.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Right? And we know if they're not inside of the school, they're missing connections, they're missing opportunities to learn, opportunities to belong, opportunities to grow. You know, our first two episodes talked about how to get kids excited, how to start the school year off right. But if they're not there, how can we do all of those incredible things? So to help us answer our question today, we have the brilliant Shana Holden Murphy, who is a teacher, principal, data and assessment coordinator, and most recently holds the position of director of curriculum and instruction at Oak Park Schools. Her deep passion for education is rooted in her belief that school is more than a building, it's a schoolhouse, a genuine home and community worthy of being celebrated. So I just want to say, Shana, thank you so much for joining us. And we are so excited for you to help us answer a question and inspire all of the educators that are listening to our podcast today.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Okay, awesome. Thank you so much, team, for letting me join this amazing podcast today. So three of my favorite people on this side of heaven. We think combined. Everyone knows. We were JD. Yes. JD. And then of course, I know you call him Steven and Steve, but he is Dr. Double S to me, okay? You better know it. So I'm so happy to join you all today.

SPEAKER_04 3:08

Well, we we're thrilled, thrilled to have you. And but to be honest, China, and keeping it real, this is one that that racks my brain. Like, how do we get our you know, I was a high school teacher. Um, my kids are now all in their 30s. They're always gonna be my babies. They're always my babies. I don't care how old you are, you're still my baby. I see you walking on the street with your family. Oh, they're gonna want my babies with their babies. And it always racked my mind like, how do we get kids to come to school? And at least from my vantage point, and kind of like thematic what we talked about the last two episodes, shout out to our subscribers, like, click, and subscribe. Teaching tomorrow. Um, we got to give them a reason to come to school, other than you you have to. You're required by law to attend blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So we have to make school something that if you didn't have to come to it, you'd want to. Now I know that's a high bar. I know, I know. Teachers are are listening to this right now, like, Dr. Steve, how dare you? But but I truly believe um that's part of the magic sauce that's really difficult. Um, that's not a computer program, that's not a one-sized policy, that's not something you can buy off of Amazon or Etsy or Teachers per teachers, but it we really have to think about making it meaningful to kids. But Jay, what do you say? What's your idea before we get Shayna in with her genius?

SPEAKER_03 4:39

Well, I I don't I'm not sure I necessarily have the answer to this. What I do know is that what I do know is uh all of us here uh have been grappling with this for quite a long time. Shayna, uh all the way back to our time in Detroit. Uh many, many a year ago. Uh far too many a year ago.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

But not that long ago. We're not that old.

SPEAKER_03 5:03

Not that old. We're not that old. Speak for yourselves. Uh this is uh it's been something we've been grappling with, and we've a lot of different strategies that we put in place, uh a lot of different things that we're trying inside of the classroom uh year after year, and it still feels as if this is a uh a compounding problem is is moving these chronic absentee, uh, absentee numbers. Um I, you know, I I think it's a community issue, right? And you talk about school being a schoolhouse, and it takes all of us at the school, it takes us in the community, and it takes those that are living in that in the house to really work together uh around this understanding of of what we need to do to get kids to come to school. So I'm curious, can't wait to hear uh some of the things you're doing. Um, but you uh keeping that schoolhouse at the center of what it is we do uh might be able to move some of these numbers if we if we really think about it.

SPEAKER_04 6:04

So Shane, let's bring you into this. Let's let's tap into your brain. How do we get the kids? How do we get the babies to come to school? Madam Assistant Superintendent.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Listen, if I had the magic sauce, please know that I will probably not be on this podcast right now. I'll be somewhere in Bali with my jets flying in the wind. But since I have not figured it completely out, I do think I have some insight um into this. And as Jay alluded to um when I was a school building principal, and even now, everything is a schoolhouse. How do we take care of children? That's the basic question, right? Do children feel a sense of belongingness, care, and connection when they encounter us, when they come into our schoolhouses? Do they get excited to come to the schoolhouse? And I think those are all of the things that make up the magic sauce to getting kids to want to come to school. I know that um in our world of standardized assessments, common core state standards, no child left behind, all of those things. Um we kind of got away from just that joy of school. And I think that's been one of the largest detriments. I know as a country, we want to make sure that we're producing smart people, but we also got to produce happy and whole and healthy people. So a part of that is that joy element of schools. I don't care if you're in a preschool, a high school, an alternative school, if you're coming to the schoolhouse, we're gonna have fun. We're gonna have some joy. And um, I had an opportunity to go to uh participate in cognitive coaching PD last week with Steven and some, or Dr. Double S and some of the crew. And one of my new favoriteest people in the world, uh, consultant Carolyn McCander said something so amazing in that time. And I did tell her I was gonna steal it for our opening of schools this year, and I did. But her quote, she said, the most important things to support our students are free. That's relationships, that's caring, that's connection. And her keyword was we don't need a grant to do any of those things. So we focus on the connection, the community, and the care of our children. I do think that that will um influence them to want to come to the schoolhouse. Um, I recall being a principal in Detroit at Law Academy over there on Seven Mile Van Dyke, uh, which is uh Katie and Jay weren't there. They were in another school in the same district. Um, but we know what students we were serving, right? Um and I re I used to stand at the front door every day to greet all 500 of my students when they came in, whether that was a fist bump, a smile, a hug, a hemp, a hip bump, or something to let them know that I was excited for them to come. And I'll never forget it was a kindergarten student who I hadn't seen in like three days. And um, I said, Oh, you know, such and such. I'm so happy to see your face this morning. I missed you. I haven't, I don't think I saw you the last couple of days. And his mom turned to me and she said, Miss Marthy, he just didn't feel like coming to school. Oh, this is a podcast, they can't see my face.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Yes, I was just gonna say, you just missed the quintal Shayna, like head flip, you missed it. It's once you meet her, you'll know.

SPEAKER_03 9:35

Shoulder shade.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Yes. What is that? But it was at that moment that I understood that and now kids hold the key. Back in the day, kids would come to school because parents said, you gotta go to school, you gotta do this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But that little five-year-old student dictated to his mom whether or not he was gonna go to school. And I didn't look at that as a negative thing, I looked at that as my power and influence that I could have and direct access I can have to the children coming into my schoolhouse. That if I can influence them, that I can love on them, if I can build a connection with them, if I can demonstrate joy with them, they're gonna want to come to school. And so yes, there are a lot of things we can do. I think um obviously a lot of systemic issues exist for our families, health barriers, transportation barriers. Uh, we have a lot of schoolish choice happening, which is not a bad thing, but that may present some challenges for families of getting to school. All of those things are true. And there are some things systematically that we do need to do. But I think when I think about my locus of control, I think about the power that I hold and educators hold to build connection, caring, and community with kids at the schoolhouse that makes them want to come and not miss a day of seeing you smile, of that fist bump, of that hug, of that hip bump, of that, you know, whatever secret sign you have with the couple kids. They look, they, they look forward to that. And um, I'm I'm gonna stop talking right there. I do have I have one other thing, but it's a conversation, so I'm gonna be quiet.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

Okay. Yeah, no, no, no. I mean, we just love listening to you talk to us about all of the inspiring ways that you're making connections and that, you know, that energy that you're bringing to just like show kids when they come, like the care that you have for them. Um, so many of our listeners are teachers, right? And are thinking about like what role do I play, right, as a teacher in the classroom. And so I'm wondering if you can share with our audience mess, uh audience members who are teachers, what are some moves, like specific things that they can do to your point that are in their locus of control that get us back to the question of like getting kids to come to school?

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Yes, absolutely. I'm I'm glad you asked that question, Katie Girl. Um as a district, some Oak Park schools and as a district, we are engaged in capturing kids' hearts. K through 12. And even if a district is not officially or you know, um calling themselves capturing kids' hearts, the basic premise is all about that sense of belongingness. How do I create community in my classroom? How do I greet kids? How do I show an interest in them, ask them about their day, um, ask how their weekend went, maybe visit a couple of their games if I have time? How do I find opportunity to build relationships with children? Not just in the presence of content, but in the presence of just human nature, human dignity, humanness that they all bring to us. So if I'm a teacher, I'm thinking about do I know all my students' names? How quickly can I learn them? Do I call them their names when they see me? Um, how do I engage with them? Is it with a smile on my face? Do I have a special greeting, a fiss bump, a high thigh, a hip bump, a hug? Um, how do I ask them about themselves? Not to pry, but to understand them and to build maybe a connection with them. Maybe some of them play football or go to dance class. And maybe I used to go to dance class or something to that effect. But how can I find points of connection with them? Know their names, demonstrate joy, um, and just uh just those basic premises of capturing kids' hearts, greeting kids daily, you know, um, providing a safe space in the classroom that makes them want to be there, and just um doing things that build a sense of belongingness and connection with me and with each other.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

If yeah, Shana, uh yeah, I you bring up some really good points here and just leaning into this idea. If a school is a house, no house is complete without without parents and guardians and families and the important role that they play in in establishing a foundation for kids to value school, come to school and and get the supports they need in order to get them to uh to to the school. So my my question to you is is while parents obviously play an important role in setting that foundation, we in the school play an important role of partnering with our parents. Right? So what what are what are some of the things, whether it's currently or that you know, over the course of time, that that you've been a part of that have really built this sense of community with families uh to be a big part of the work you do inside of these schools?

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Yeah, that's that's a great question, Jay. And I love that analogy of like if the school is a house, right? We got parents. I love that uh that good segue you made there. Um but I often say that um you know we have little humans which are kids, and then we have big humans, which are our stab and our parents, right? But psychologically, all of us want the same thing. Safety, love, a sense of belongingness, a sense of care. So how do I engage with my with my families? How do I demonstrate care to them? Right, and it may look different from family to family, but am I personable? Am I approachable? Do I reach out even when it's you know something that's not negative? How do I um break down barriers for them? So one easy one I did as a school principal, and um, and I I thought it helped my families to get to feel connected to me. So each week we had to do a weekly newsletter to our families, and I would read it like a podcast and attach the audio to the newsletter. And I would encourage families, you can listen to this while you're washing the dishes, while you're getting the kids ready for school for the week, while you're doing whatever. And I think just from them hearing my voice, and then when they came to the schoolhouse, they felt like they knew me. They felt like, oh, this is Mrs. Murphy. That's who I hear on my, you know, newsletter every weekend. Um, and just being visible. That is a world of a difference. Don't just stay in the back shadows in your office, in your classroom, be visible, be out during car line or arrival or dismissal, um, engage in conversation with parents. Again, they're just big humans that are seeking a sense of connection. So, how do I offer that? How do I provide space and opportunity for parents to connect with me and me with them, right? And and then when they knew that I knew their kids' names, oh, I had them forever. Okay. They, oh, you know my name, you know his name. Yes, I'm the schoolhouse mama. These are my kids. I know that.

unknown 16:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

So those little things that they know that we're taking care of their little humans help to build connections with them. And then, of course, offering family nights, like just the basic things, right? Times to connect, play games, have food, right? You know, food will get everybody together. But have food, whether that's little things or not, um, offer space and opportunity to um play games, build relationships, and and really it's just about being, honestly, being visible, right? Being accessible, um, not hiding, having conversation, all of those things.

SPEAKER_04 17:33

I'm sorry to interrupt Shanay, you you know this about me. I have to admit, as soon as you said schoolhouse, or Katie, you said schoolhouse, I have been saying It's Shayna's. It's Shayna's. Is it Shayna's or it's a little bit more?

SPEAKER_01 17:43

I when I knew we were bringing her on for this episode, I was like, Shayna is the person because she believes. Like she called her building a schoolhouse because she believes in the things that she's saying.

SPEAKER_04 17:55

Well, the entire time I have been singing Schoolhouse Rock? No, no, a different song in my head. Shane, you some of you even know this. Uh, you know, but you I make up the own my own little lyrics to it. But a schoolhouse is a house of love. You know, it's come on, sing to me now. Uh hopefully we didn't violate copyright on our podcast this time. Hopefully.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

But that wasn't a real group, Stephen. Dr. Double Edge. That was the fact.

SPEAKER_04 18:24

Like we copyrighted the fake group. But yeah, this concept of like the school being the house of love and support uh really, really resonates with me. Uh Shane, I want to get your reaction to this, uh, a study that I think is kind of tied to this. Because, you know, things are great when they're great, but when they're not great, when there's some sort of tear in the fabric in the relationship, that's when it kind of tests our system. Uh a 2022 research article suggests that reactive and disciplinary approaches to absenteeism, like suspending or even threatening kids and families with legal action, often exacerbates the problem, especially for vulnerable students. Restorative and supportive interventions are more effective in improving attendance. So talk to me about ways in which teachers and even school leaders can make classrooms and schools more restorative when there has been something that has, you know, gone like, hey, you've gotten five, ten, probably not more than that, but 10, 20 absences. How do we create that restorative environment as opposed to like a punitive environment?

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Yes, yes, absolutely. I I agree with that study. Punitive things only, like you said, exacerbate the problem and make kids not want to come to school even more, right? Because we already know the other ramifications that come with that. I'm behind on my work, I feel like I can't keep up, I can't catch up, you know, all of the things. Um and so um thinking about it, it's really one of the things I think we don't do well enough is getting to the root of the problem and then identifying an aligned strategy. Right? I can do all of these pizza parties for perfect attendance. But if that strategy is not directly tied to the root of the problem, maybe I will have to interview my families or my kids to really, really figure out what is happening. Is it that you need an alarm clock because you can't get up to get to the bus stop on time? Um, is it because you are helping to um, you know, watch over and supervise your younger siblings because mom had to work nights? Like, what is the root of the problem? And being punitive and suspending kids, especially about things they can't control, even high schoolers. I tell people all the time, high schoolers, they're still kids. They're still minors, right? And me as a professional, as an adult, it's my job to uncover what's happening with this kid. Why aren't they coming to school? Is it a health issue? Do they have to help take care of a family member or help mom watch the younger siblings because mom and dad are working and trying to keep a shelter? You know, eggs cost $29.32 now. Okay. So, you know, they may they may have to go out to work. What is the root of the problem? And then from there, deciding, determining an aligned strategy of intervention and punitive natures like suspending kids, putting them in detention, you know, sending them home even more. Now, what sense does that make? I'm suspending you because you didn't come to school. Well, what is suspension? I'm sending you home, which means you're not coming to school still. What in the world?

SPEAKER_04 21:38

Yeah, yeah, I I I I have to admit, and and you know, I I will say, you know, all teachers, school leaders, superintendents, I I do believe in my heart that everybody's doing the best that they can, the best that they know how, the best that they think know. And and yet, though, what I see in policies, uh, yeah, if you're absent or tardy, you're gonna be suspended. I'm like, wait, the punishment for not coming to school is not coming to school more. Like it never made any any sort of sense to me. You know, and yet we do have uh students and families that that really, really struggle. Shannon, you hit the nail on the head. Because again, I I I you know, high school teacher, uh having to remind ourselves that they're they're still babies. And matter of fact, they are adolescents, so they are going through all the throes of puberty and wrestling with good decision making and risk taking. So we have to create the environment where, yeah, they're gonna make a mistake. They're gonna fall, they're gonna make a bad choice. How do we create an environment where mistakes don't become like a bottomless pit? And even out of that, that attendance issue not become a bottomless pit, but we actually get get to them early. Um this this idea of restorative, restorative practices. I feel like we kind of went in one direction in Michigan and yeah, we kind of went in the other direction. Like, like what I what I hear is that oh, restorative means we're not going to provide any consequences or punishment. What just kind of what's your take in that environment of like, oh, we're just babying kids if we just do restorative things with them.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

No, I think it goes back to I don't know, what was that old concept, conscious discipline? A little bit of that, right? Like do kids and humans need to learn that there are natural consequences to some actions? Yes, because science tells us that for every action there's a reaction, right? We got it. But in what ways, and and my colleague Brandy Norm said something wonderful during our opening of schools this week, and she really talked about when kids act up, because she's our district director of culture and climate and communications. And so she was letting staff know, okay, when kids act up or act out with, right, because all behavior is communication, whatever that behavior is, is this a moment of discipline or is this a moment of development? How am I teaching right what is appropriate, what's needed in this moment? How do I demonstrate human dignity? How do I honor that this adolescent or this kid still has a brain that's growing even until like mid-20s? Like they're still growing, right? And so how do I take this moment, not that I'm letting the kid off the hook, they need to know and understand every action has a reaction or that you know there are consequences, whether positive or negative, to what I decide to do, right? I decide my behavior. But how do I respond to that child, child again, either, you know, school age five to 18 sometimes, right? But how do I respond to them and ask myself, is this a moment of discipline or development? And and nine times out of 10, I'll probably say nine and a half times out of 10, unless you got, you know, the big three drugs, weapons, you know, whatever. It's a moment of development. Now, if I've now I've given you grace and I've developed you and I've given you boundaries and I've and I've talked to you about, you know, why this behavior yielded this action and you continue, then I might need to, you know, go a different route. But again, on behavior is communication. The question is, am I response? How am I responding to this behavior? And nine times out of ten, punitive is not the way.

SPEAKER_04 25:24

Well, speaking of responding, now is time for you and us, Hilsa, stick on for us, stick around for us for a minute for our hot takes. Because we want to see uh how we all respond. Hot take. Now, the hot take could be uh it could be evidence-based, it might not be, but just speaking for yourself from the heart, but a wild and zany idea out of the box, thinking about how we can get kids to come to school. So my hot take is don't go to them. Home visits. Let's talk about home. Yeah, like that's an old idea. That's a whole episode. That's a whole home visits. But yeah, if if they're absent, you know, for for whatever, you know, uh a couple of days, a date, dah, dah, dah, dah, go to them. Go do home visits, develop some of those relationships to really help uh uh engage with the family in a meaningful, authentic way, um, to really learn more. Are there health challenges? Are there transportation challenges? Are there other challenges and how can the school partner? I feel like sometimes we just want it to be one-way, unidirectional, come to us. Sometimes we need to get in the car, yep, give uh record the mileage, give, give the central office the bill, like yep, like I did 10 miles round trip, give me my little couple dollars. But home visits, go to them, go to go go to the babies, go to their homes, uh, and so we can again develop those true, uh authentic relationships with the family and and work with them as partners, uh, not as sort of like government compliant thou must come to school. Right. Jay, what do you say, brother?

SPEAKER_03 27:00

Yeah, so uh I'm I'm gonna take what you just said about where they are in their home space, and I'm gonna lean into this, continue to lean into this idea of a schoolhouse. I think we need to take it upon ourselves to provide as many needs as possible for students, uh, all students uh inside of the school. And and we do our schools do a great job of providing for students that this is the safe space that they can come uh no matter what. Uh maybe it's what is the thing that's missing that we need to fill in? Is it maybe just a meal? Like getting and and legislators, if you're listening, if you're listening, the need to continue for free lunch and breakfast programs in our schools.

SPEAKER_04 27:50

Uh 10 out of 10.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

Yes, because we know the importance of just sometimes providing meal. Maybe it's a self-care products, it's trust, it's safety, it's things that go beyond all of the great work inside of the classroom. Can they come to the school and feel as if they have the safety that they get at home and the needs met uh that they're that they should that we want them to be getting at home? Uh that's my hot take. Find the one missing piece of puzzle in all of our students and just fill in one missing piece at a time. Not the whole puzzle, just one missing piece. How do we do that in the schools to make sure that they get what they need uh to be successful?

SPEAKER_04 28:32

Day's hot take. On to Katie.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Okay, so I have a hot take, and I'm hoping that I get a 10 out of 10 from Steven as well. Okay, so here we go. Hopefully the legislators are listening to me too. Uh advocate and hire for new school nurses at every building. I was at I was at a professional learning where they presented this data about the percentage increase in daily attendance when buildings had school nurses. And there was this idea that came out of COVID where COVID was a really scary place and we told everyone you can't go to school. Right. Right. And then coming out of that, there was even this murkiness of like, if you've got, you know, a runny nose, don't come to school. If you're sick, and that lingered in us, right? And so there really was this time where it's like parents are really grappling with like, is it okay to send my kid to school if they have a runny nose? Even now, out, what are we, four or five years out of COVID? And if we put resources and funding that we don't have right now, so legislators hopefully you're listening, uh, towards being able to hire school nurses at the building so that when parents drop off their kids, they know that there's someone there to like service that need and aspect of safety. Um, I say, yeah, 11 out of 10. 11 out of 10. That's 11.

SPEAKER_03 29:50

That's extra credit by the time. I know.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

And I was like, you know, my hot take isn't like teacher specific, but I'm like, it affects me. Oh, it works, yeah, it does. Right? Like teachers want their kids inside of Classroom, and if parents are saying, like, I feel better sending my kids knowing that there's a medical professional to support them, then that benefits.

SPEAKER_03 30:07

Everybody in the schoolhouse, we all we got. Okay, gotta work together. My hot take might have just been a nine out of ten, but that's nine, that's still an eight. That's still an eight. I'll take a seven out. C's equal degrees. I'll take seven out of ten. I'll take a seven if we need to.

SPEAKER_04 30:23

Well, I want to give the last uh word hot take to RS team guest uh guest, Sana. What what do you say? What do you say? Hot take. How do we get kids to come to school? Out of the out of the box thinking.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Um, I think you're onto something with your home visits, um, along with Katie Girl, um, talking about um the nurses, right? Because we know this is one of the barriers about health. But back to Steven, this comes to our GSRP programming.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

Home visit.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

And one of the most important benefits of that process is for the teacher to understand, right, where our students are coming from. And to Jay's point, how do we best support them toward an intended outcome? So I think you're on to some. I think the whole group gets uh 15 out of 10. Y'all got all you know what?

SPEAKER_01 31:15

I I just have to say that I appreciate you brought all of our hot takes together into your own hot take. And also, my baby is about to start GSRP and they told me they're doing home visits, and I was like, oh my goodness. And you just put me at ease in a way. I'm like, you're right, it is about this like community that we're building around the educational support of my child. And so I appreciate you, Shayna. I've been nervous as heck about this home visit that's about to happen, and I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

It's gonna go so well, Katie Girl. You're gonna get to know that teacher, they're gonna get to know you and your husband, and y'all gonna be all sad. But this group right here, I'm so sad. I want to be able to be in in studio, but I want to say what the movie say, you are smart, okay? You are kind, you are important, okay. I love it.

SPEAKER_04 32:04

We will definitely have you in the studio uh next time. And again, we're in the lovely Every Media studios in downtown World. Shout out to Every Media. Jay, take us away, brother.

SPEAKER_03 32:14

All right. Well, thank you again to uh Shayna Murphy for joining us today, uh Assistant Superintendent of Oak Park Schools. Big time. We all all of us here in studio go way back with Shayna. So it's really uh really exciting to have you. Uh so that is going to do it uh for this episode of uh Teaching Tomorrow. Number three. Number three. Yeah, we're done. We're at an Oh, this is number three. Yes, it is. I agree. Three is the best number. Three is the best one. Agreed, agreed. And we're and we're gonna bring we're gonna bring Shayna, uh Shana Murphy back uh to this episode on a future episode. In studio. In studio.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

Yeah, you better energetic was high enough. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 32:58

All right. We're gonna uh we we want to make sure that uh uh we put a little plug out for our fourth episode, uh, which is coming soon. Uh next time we are gonna be diving into a topic that really is shaping the future of education right here, right now. What do we do about AI? Um we are gonna be in for that one.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Yes, and we've got a great guest. We're excited.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

We do, we have a great guest. We're gonna be joined by Dr. Andrea Zellner from Oakland Schools uh to help explore artificial intelligence and how it's impacting classrooms, what it means for teachers and students, uh, and how we can actually use it to our advantage. Uh so join us for that. It'll be a be an exciting conversation. In the meantime, don't forget to follow or subscribe to Teaching Tomorrow wherever you get your podcasts.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Smash the like. Click the like button, subscribe.

SPEAKER_03 33:55

Leave us a rating or comment, and it will help other educators find these conversations that's uh similar to like what we had here today. Uh if you enjoyed this episode, share it with a colleague who's passionate about making school a place where every student wants to be. And until next time, keep teaching, keep learning, and keep building the tomorrow your students can believe in because here at Teaching Tomorrow, we really do believe in you.

SPEAKER_04 34:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 34:21

Everyday inspiration for everyday teachers.

SPEAKER_04 34:24

Bye bye, y'all.

Educator, author, and performer Dr. Giani Clarkson joins Steven, Katie, and Jay to discuss the art of student engagement. From building authentic relationships to creating culturally relevant learning, we explore strategies that inspire excitement, belonging, and purpose so every student sees school as a place they want to be.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are tuning into the Teaching Tomorrow podcast. I am one, just one, 33.332323% of your hosts. Uh Steven, uh, let my other hosts introduce himself.

SPEAKER_04 0:34

Hey, hey, Katie Morrison, math consultant with Oakland Schools.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

And the third leg of the stool, I am Jay Hafner, Oakland Schools Literacy Consultant.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

And I am Stephen Sneed, supervisor of the awesome, amazing curriculum and assessment unit at the Oakland Schools ISD in the lovely state of Michigan. This is our second episode of the Teaching Tomorrow podcast with JKDNC. We are happy to be joined by an esteemed guest who is not in the studio but is in our nation's capital, Washington, D.C. We're going to bring him on in a minute. But first I want to tell you about this topic today, very apropos for the beginning of the school year. How, how, how, how do we get kids excited about school? How do we get kids excited about school? I have three teenagers that live in my house and eat up all my food and run my water bill up. Um, and I can definitely tell you that exciting and school might not necessarily be two words they're gonna put in the same sentence. So, educators, we have some work to do, but we know you are the one to do it and we are there with you. So, my main man's a hunter grandj. What do you say? How do we get kids excited about school?

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Yeah, I think it's a really important question. And I think one of the things we need to consider is how do we make school a place that they want to come to and be a part of? And you know, listening to you, Steven, and and and framing uh your your kids and how they're not excited for school. Uh, I do not have teenagers. I have a second grader and a kindergartner. They don't eat enough of my food or opposite ends. I could not get them to eat enough. Is that a dad? Copyright violation. Or more to come. Uh yeah, but I, you know, I'm I'm often like struck by how excited my kids are to go to school uh on a day-to-day basis. Uh it feels like every morning is Christmas morning. They wake up, they're excited. That's what it's where they go to see their friends, they love their teacher. It's a space that they they want to be. I they bring so much energy in the morning, more energy than I have to give in the morning. So I'm I'm fighting with that morning energy, but it's a place that they want to be. We know that uh statistics show that as students go through their uh uh go through school, that they become less and less interested to attend as they move into middle school and as they move into high school. They become less engaged uh for whatever reasons or for a multitude of reasons. Those spaces are just not engaging students the way uh we do at the elementary level. So that's uh that's just my first take on things. I'm always interested in engaging in conversations around why are elementary schools such engaging places? And I think we should do an episode around that with uh our amazing elementary school teachers. Uh, but let's think about ways in which we're building engaging spaces that that uh middle schoolers and teenagers want to be.

unknown 3:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:34

Katie, what about you?

SPEAKER_02 3:35

Yeah, what do you say?

SPEAKER_04 3:36

Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, building off of the ideas that we had in our first episode where we were talking about the belonging button, right? Hitting that belonging button. Yeah, I mean, I think it's about creating spaces where kids feel like they belong, like this school is yours. Um, so what are we doing to help shape the space so that kids feel like this is their space and not our space? Um, I think that, you know, Jay, what you said around like creating spaces where kids want to be. So not just this is our space, but this is like where we want to go. Um, and I think that those like spaces do exist inside of our schools, right? I was, you know, we recently facilitated a professional learning session for disciplinary literacy where we were talking about like, what do you want your classrooms to be like for your students? Like when your kids are most engaged and most happy, like what does that look like? And hearing from teachers like talk and share with you know those stories that they're sharing. I think that you know, there there are those spaces. And so if we asked our teenagers, is school a place that you want to be? You know, they might have like moments. And so, how do we create a space where it's like all seven, eight hours of that day that they're there, they're feeling like good about that space.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Synergy where it all works synergy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

I mean, I think I mean, speaking of like where it all works together, you know, sometimes when I think about like how do we get kids excited about school, are we really working together with the kids to make it a place where they want to be? Or is it very adult-centric where like I've made the decisions, I've decided what we're gonna learn, how we're gonna learn, and how you're gonna demonstrate it. So when you come into the school space, none of it's about you. None of it is based in your identity, your culture, your preferences, your interests, your like. It's all about the adults in in the space. And so therefore, it's not really my school, it's your school. And it's hard to get people excited, whether they're young or old. It's hard to get them excited about a thing that doesn't belong to them, that's not theirs, that they don't have like ownership or a stake in like, oh, I made this thing, um, so now I'm really vested in its success. Well, if it's your thing, it's your test, and if it's your activity, then to the extent I care about that, I'll get into it. And to the extent I die, I don't, then then I won't. So how can we truly like co-create with kids? And I want to co-create a moment here together and bring on our esteemed, educated, learned, wise, sagacious, efficacious uh uh uh teacher, award-winning teacher, author, all that in a bag of chips, and not like that little knockoff chips. We're talking about like real good better-made, because we're in we're in Metro Detroit. Shout out to Detroit. Yeah, like that real good like bag of better-made chips. Dr. Gianni Clarkson. Sir, welcome to the podcast from our nation's capital in in Washington, D.C. Uh, social studies teacher, great orator uh all around. Uh my brother Gianni, excuse me, excuse me, Dr. Clarkson. Um, geez, come on now. You know, I I gotta throw the title out there. I mean, you know, you wrote the dissertation. Um what what's your take on this topic? Like, how can we get kids excited about school?

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Well, you know, that's it's a great question, and I feel like it's an everybody problem. Or should I say everyone should be part of the solution? I think it's one part what teachers are doing in the classroom. It's one part uh the school communities that administrators are building out. And the third part, what are parents talking about on the way to school? It's an everybody problem. I think about what parents, um, and I of course being a parent, um, are you taking the time over the summer to set goals for your scholar before they enter the schoolhouse? Hey, you know, last year our grades didn't look that great. Or last year our grades did look that great. How do we gonna do that? What are some things that we're looking forward to being in this new grade? What are some things that we're gonna try? How are we gonna be brave this year? Uh, how are we gonna step outside of our comfort box? Um, what are the things that we're gonna work on? I think those are really great, smart tools that parents need to think about doing before kids even leave um and look will really enter the schoolhouse. What teachers, and I I keep saying this all the time, I I don't care how many degrees you have and and how smart you tell me you are. If your lessons are boring, they're boring. You know, well, I mean that they are, right? So what are you doing? Oh, what did you do over the summer to make sure that you're building out impactful unit plans that get keep keep students engaged every day? Now, mind you, every day instructionally cannot be, you know, uh the cahoot central, as I like to say. Um and we we have some teachers that are some cahoot warriors, you know. Every Friday, you know, it's cahoot it's a cahoot here, cahoot there, cahoot everywhere. But listen, are is instruction sound? Are you bringing together relevant lessons that uh and you know connect real life experiences to what's going on with students because that helps build excitement as well, too. Last but not least, are is your the administrators inside your school building solid reward systems that celebrate student achievement. Um, oftentimes inside of school communities, the the squeaky, the squeaky wheel gets all the oil, right? Yeah, our students that are high flyers, our students that are not having the best time academically, we pour so hard into those students, but we really don't take consideration like, hey man, you know, little Johnny over there come to school every day. We should probably celebrate that. Yeah um, you know, such that's got an A on their test and has straight A's. We should celebrate that. Because what happens is that when we celebrate positive behaviors more than trying to rectify those uh non-desirable behaviors, we change the culture of our school. We literally flip it on its head. And I think that by doing those three things in a solid attack, I think that's how we make sure that school that children are in general really excited to get school, like to get the school year going.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Uh Gianna, excuse me, I'm sorry, Dr. Clarkson. Uh I really liked uh I liked your your framing of that that it's an everybody problem. Yeah, and I think sometimes a lot of my teacher peeps, shout out to all my teachers who are listening uh to the Teaching Tomorrow podcast. I think some uh a lot of us feel like the world is on your shoulder, like it's it's your problem. It's not an everybody problem, it's a teacher problem. That's how it's framed. That's how sometimes is how it's framed. Like it's it's a like it's it's a lot of teacher blame. And I know a lot of teachers out there like, help me. Like, can I get some help? You know, can I get some help from the admin? Can I get some help from the parents? Can I get some help from the the students themselves? Right. Can I get some help from larger society? So I love that framing that this is not an issue that is teachers alone to solve it. Now, obviously, as we're in the classroom, we're interacting with school, a lot of that that responsibility is on us, but it's not on us alone that it really takes everybody in that. Um Jay, what were you saying?

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Yeah, I was just gonna like picking up on the point. I think classrooms are nothing more than a microcosm of the larger society in which we live. Right. And and it's we can we have four walls in a classroom and a really strong door. None of those walls or doors are strong enough to keep the pressures of the outside world and and the influences of the outside world from inundating the work we're doing inside of the classroom. And so I guess what what I'm what I really want to get at is understanding and knowing that dynamic that we face in the classroom every day. There are so many stories of inspiration, of st of teachers that are just leaning hard into creating these incredible spaces of learning for students from the kindergarten all the way up to being seniors at high school. So, Dr. Clarkson, if you could, in your in all the great work you're doing inside, elaborate and pontificate. Elaborate and pontificate a little about what are some of the things you do to build inspiration for your students that do build those welcoming spaces that they want to come back to because I know they want to be in your classroom. They love being there. What are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 12:19

It's funny because you're you're as you say that I'm actually sitting next to one of my welcoming spaces, which is I decided this year that what I want to do is create a VIP lounge and it comes equipped with um I can I I really want to kind of turn my camera. Can I do that?

SPEAKER_01 12:34

You can tell what we'll we'll describe what we're seeing for the audience.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

Yeah, I'll describe so vodka season four. Season four, yeah. So we'll do that season. So I have a couch, I have a coffee table in my room, I have velvet ropes that separate this part of my classroom from the rest of my classroom, and I have a beautiful flat screen TV. Uh it's called the VIPA lounge. If you do not have an A in my class, you cannot enter the lounge. And literally, what it does is it has the names of everyone that's gonna be welcomed in the lounge. So uh every other Friday, what I plan on doing is having VIPA lunch in the lounge. Um, there's going to be, of course, um additional incentives throughout the school year to that uh if you are a VIPA lounge member, you get to go on special field trips. We're setting up really an experience for kids that go, you know what, this is cool. Now, for those students that have a little bit of a concern, like, ah, my grades are not where they want it to be. I also have uh Tuesdays and Thursdays with Clarkson, which is literally design office hours where I have where students can come by, put in their Chick-fil-A order after school, and between 3:30 and 4:30 get additional tutoring that, of course, hey, I didn't understand that. Can you reteach that? Um, and that's important too. Providing safe spaces for children to ask to ask questions. You know, a lot of times the reason why kids hate school, or yeah, I'll say it hate school because they don't feel comfortable asking questions. Yeah, and it's like, well, wait a minute, you you came to this place to learn with an expectation that you don't know everything. And the way for you to learn something is to ask questions, but we haven't provided a safe environment for you to do the thing that you need. Man, that's bad practice. That's some bad, bad pedagogical stuff going on over there. So I want to make sure that this entire year, students know this is a safe place to learn. And I love when kids say to me, I can't wait to get to your class. Yeah. Because what that says is you have provided a place for me where I know I'm gonna learn something. And when I don't know something, it's safe for me to get that answer that I need. So that that to me is what I've done in my space. And and inside of my school community, there are tons of amazing spaces where people are doing a variety of various things to make sure that we're providing the best services to our students and and really taking in consideration student voice as well, too.

SPEAKER_04 15:14

Yeah.

unknown 15:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:16

So Dr. Clarkson, I'm wondering if you could tell our listeners, you know, thinking about our secondary teachers who might have students who for years have felt like school is not a place for them. For years, right? What can you tell our teachers who are saying, like, I'm working against like years of lack of engagement, lack of interest in in school. Um, you know, what do our teachers do when they're receiving those students in these first couple weeks of school?

SPEAKER_00 15:49

You know, I'm gonna quote the the musical King and I getting to know you, getting to know all about you, yeah, getting to like you, getting to hope you like me. And what I mean by that is that there's nothing wrong with a sunshine phone call before the rain starts. Okay, there's a really bad teaching practice when the first time that a teacher calls home is when there's a problem. Yeah, gotta stop that. Right. Hey, my name is Dr. Clarkson. Um, me and your child are gonna kick it for 180 days. What are some things that I need to know about your scholar? What are they like? What are they dislike? Um, what is their hesitancy about this subject that I teach? Well, let me tell you some things about me. I like I like to go outside, I like being outside when the weather's nice, I love field trips. You know, being very intentional in relationship building. See, we we say that word a lot, like, oh, you got to build relationships with kids. We do, we do. But it's not, but kids is really parentheses for for their family. You're really building relationships with their family. What are the what is what are the moments where you're saying to their family, hey, um if there's something that's going on in your in your family household that's a little that's not at its best, you can trust me to make sure that I still treat your child fair. Um, you can trust me to make sure that I'm giving your child a fair chance. That's what parents want to know. And and we're, you know, for those of us that are parents on this panel, you want your you want your child to know that they're getting a fair shake. Yeah, but you also want to be able to trust that teacher. And it starts with building those relationships early and often. Um weekly, I send a classroom newsletter, not a school newsletter, a Dr. Clarkson newsletter. From me. I say, this is what we learned this week. This is the test that's coming up, these are things I'm excited about. About 80% of our students pass the test. Um, talk to your student to find out if they didn't do well on the test. Here are my office hours. This is my phone number. Um, call me, let's talk. And by doing that, they know that I'm a trusted partner, but also on the back end and make sure that unfortunately, if Mad Day does come, I can always say, I reached out. You didn't hit the ball across the net. And I don't, and I'm I'm a little sad that you didn't return serve. But now that we know this, let's return serve, let's build out something wonderful for your scholar.

unknown 18:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

You know, I I love that because, you know, what the research tells us uh is that so many uh both students and their families that have historically struggled in schools often have a tense relationship with the school. Like they don't, and and sometimes the parents themselves have not had great relationships with school. So they see school as uh almost almost as an enemy, as as as it were. And so I love that you are talking about building up that sort of positive reserve. At some point, we we may need to have a critical conversation about good choices and decision making. Yeah, and but but I don't want that to define our relationship. I want that to be one piece in the overall relationship of the school. And I and I love how you mentioned that. Um I'm I'm wondering from your lane, talking to, and of course, our primary listener are teachers to the teaching to the teaching tomorrow podcast. But uh we hope that there are administrators and instructional coaches listening too from a teacher's lens. What would you say uh could be some supports that administrators should provide to teachers so that we can create those relationships and make the school an exciting place to be?

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Well, you know, for me, I think it's really got to open up that budget. Open up that budget, give some teachers some money and tell them you're gonna be responsible for one community-building event inside of your classroom. Okay, talk to me. You're responsible for a community-building event. Now, inside of my school community, what I'm doing is that I know for back to school night, I'm literally going to go on my way to pass out invitations and say dinner with Clarkson. I'm not even calling it back to school night. We're gonna have dinner. I'm going to not buy pizza, I'm gonna get some real food. You know, we're gonna have a little, I'm I'm gonna take my I have tables that set up, are set up like four tops. I'm gonna get some um tablecloths, some paper, uh, paper plates, you know, drinks, everything that we need here. And I'm gonna present who I am while we have dinner. Um, there's a really great book called by E.L. Halloway that says uh um talks about brain science, how to get the best out of people. And one major chapter inside this book talks all about how when you sit down for dinner, it's a communal experience and people feel like they're part of a community. So for me, it's like, hey, I I'm gonna provide, I know that you're making a sacrifice from coming from your job to come to school to talk to me. I know that dinner is a concern. I've taken because I am a person that has a family, I'm taking that off the table. No, no excuses. Come on, let's talk. Let's get after it. And and really what it what it boils down to is that parents, and it's something you said, you know, earlier, uh Dr. Sneed, is that uh right back at you.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

That's me.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Yeah, parents, parents want to feel human.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Not and they and they they really feel like they are not get they're not getting a human experience from us. Shameless plug, but I'll I'll go quick. So I talk about this in my book, Teach, Pray, Drink, about how there was a parent that I had who would not walk into uh the school. You know, she was active, but she had one rule, she's not coming into the school, not coming to the school at all. You know, after time and talking to her, because I had to meet with her at a Starbucks inside of um a grocery store. That's the only way she would meet with me. I one day just flat out asked her, you know, what was the shake? And she she fell out crying. And she talked about how there was a teacher that was in the school that treated her badly, that her daughter went to the same exact school she went to as a kid, and that this teacher treated her badly, took rulers, threatened to hit them all the time. And you know, this woman is dead and gone, but that trauma of that bad educational experience rubbed off on her so badly that she removed herself from our school community. We gotta be real careful. You know, we're dealing with real people in real time that have real feelings. Yeah, and and if we're talking about how do we make sure that we set the tone for that school community, it's not uh it's bigger than my lesson plan. Yeah, it's really planning to meet and learn and and love people because this is hard work, but it's heart work. And when we take the heart out of the work, we make this work way too hard.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Yeah. Yeah. So so how do you make it easier? How do you make it easier? If it's way too hard, how do we make it easy? Because one thing that I know that that all of my teachers can can resonate with out there, we we need that easy button because the work is so hard, is it's arduous. What are some things we could do to make it easier to create those meaningful environments?

SPEAKER_00 23:37

I like I said, I I I'll go back to that weekly newsletter is a major move. I think that you know calling parents with some good with good news first before bad news would always help. Um I I think that capitalizing on any time there is any type of event, especially athletics. Um, if you're a teacher and your school has any type of sports teams, uh, you need to go to those games. Not just boys, girls as well, too. Because parent-teacher conference can happen anywhere. It can happen during halftime. It can happen at the concession stand. You know, never miss a chance to have contact with parents. Because this is what these parents want. They want they want contact, they want to know, do I think my child is special? Do you think my child is special? Because you know, I don't really trust this thing that I love with everybody. And you're a stranger until I know you. And if you don't take the time to know me, then we're gonna have some strange things happen between between the two of us. So, you know, that's why you know, I like of course I'm highly involved inside of my school community, you know, fellas that's on the basketball team and ladies on the basketball team. You come to our game this year, yeah, of course. You're gonna be the PA announcer, of course. Man, my mama asked about you. She wanted to make sure you was good. Yeah, I'm good. Like if you do this right, you start becoming an extended member of the family.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

You know, I've had the blessing of being in this, you know, being in this field for 16 years, Lord. Um, and I think about the fact that I've been to my former students' weddings, wow, graduations, baby showers. You know, how does the man that gave you homework sit there and RSVP for a wedding?

SPEAKER_03 25:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

You know, that's that's where we talk about building those strong relationships. And it's gotta be done day one because there, therefore, that that's what leads kids to running to school because they're not going to school, they're going to see extended members of their family.

SPEAKER_02 25:52

Yeah, I mean, you said it. I I think one of the challenges, we put a lot of things in front of, or a lot of things are put in front of educators that sometimes are challenged to remind us that this is a human job. First and foremost, it is about human connection. And, you know, we're talking about something interesting here that I've been thinking about. There are almost two competing forces going on here. There are families and parents that may have had bad educational experiences that are framing their uh what school is and their view of school. As educators, most of us as educators had really positive school experiences. And we often fall into the trap of creating school spaces based on the school and learning we had. Those two competing forces are often pushing against one another. So, Dr. Clarkston, one of the questions I wanted to ask you is for today's students in your classroom, a social studies class, you're delivering a lesson. What are some of the moves that you're putting in place to engage today's students right here, right now, to keep them engaged in your social studies lesson? How are you building that positive feel in a lesson?

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Boy, I in the state of our political climate, yeah, I got enough material, don't I? Wow, wow. And and I and I think that's where we talk about building out relevant lessons. You know, I tell my students that you all are the next generation of voters. I don't want to build you all to agree with me, but I do need to build you all to be patriots. And what I mean by that, to quote Mark Twain, and Mark Twain says it so brilliantly, is that patriotism means that I love my country, I love my country and question my government when it deserves it. That makes sense. Um, I want students to really understand how the world around them is moving and how it's going to affect them. And, you know, sitting right here, having the backdrop of the nation's capital, really having the backdrop of I can look out my window and see the Capitol building.

SPEAKER_03 28:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Having that there looming, um, and my students pass it, it looms in the shadows. And I tell them, I said, that building means a lot. It means a lot to you. It means a lot to me. And you need to know what's going on in in that building over there. Uh, my my students are really deliberate in trying to get this, and I and I think that's that's why they love my class the way that they do, because they're going, man, there's a lot of great things that are happening here. And I I want to know more. I want to be know more. And I one of the biggest compliments is that I had a young man say, you know, when my parents sit at the dinner table, I now know what they're talking about. Wow. And that's and that's you know, so I'm thinking to myself, for for three years, or for how many years you there was stuff that was said that was flying over your head, and you had no idea, and now it's been brought to you, and you're going, I get it now. I I it means something now. I I'm gonna register to vote now, I'm gonna pay closer attention to things now. Um that's that's for me how I bring that uh relevance and and really kind of bring that community inside my classroom.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

So you through the way you've been able to engage students really allows them to not just learn, but to participate. I can participate in democracy. It's off the page, it's in that building there, in that community in which I live. Right. I love that. Well, we're gonna live in a different space now because we're gonna transition to our hot topics as we begin to land the plane here. This is when it's gonna get real hot sizzling on this topic of how we get kids inside excited about school. Katie, I'm gonna toss it to you first to kick us off, ladies first.

SPEAKER_04 30:03

Already.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

How do we get kids excited about school? Your hot take.

SPEAKER_04 30:06

Yeah, yeah. So I appreciate everything that Gianni said to us, really giving us some like practical, like this is what we can and should be doing in our classroom. So my take is a little out there. Okay. Oh, good. So my idea is what if students ran part of the school day? And I'm not talking like, let's make uh you principal for the day, right? I'm talking about like real, genuine like parts of the day that they got to run. So they were doing mini lessons, they were designing lesson workshops, they were co-creating alongside with their teachers. I mean, I can just imagine that like if I knew tomorrow, I was sitting in my art class as the teacher teaching my fellow classmates how to draw anime, like I want to be there. I'm gonna not only do I wanna be there, I gotta be there on time. I gotta make sure my supplies are straight. And I feel like if we get to a space where like kids want to be there because it's the place that we've created that is theirs, um, doing that by giving them spaces to design the school day, I think would would push them into a place that they want to be at the school.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

I don't want to go after Katie now. I don't want to go after that. So you're gonna make Jay go next.

SPEAKER_04 31:21

I'm always rooting for those 10 out of 10s.

SPEAKER_02 31:24

Yeah, yeah. We and now I gotta follow that up. So you know it's funny, we we don't hear a little behind the scenes, we don't have production meetings and share our hot takes with one another. We don't know. They're all a surprise to it.

SPEAKER_04 31:37

That's why I always have two, just in case one of you steals my hot take. I always come with that.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

As always, Katie is more prepared than I am. So my my hot take is not exactly the same, but it's pretty it it's it's similar. Uh, and so like I said, didn't didn't know that was Katie's hot take. But my hot take is what if in the days leading up to school, especially in uh let's let's think about a high school. Kids come and get their schedule, maybe they look for their locker, they go home, or maybe they're in just one space, they come to the cafeteria and they go home. What if we opened up our buildings a week before and we allowed students creative opportunities to come in and design what they want in the in the classrooms and in the hallways? We talk about making our walls talk, right? You know, having the walls, you know, full of student work and making the walls talk. What if we gave over uh the creative opportunity to students to design what that school could look like coming in at the start of the school year? Right, build lean into their creativity, let them put, you know, and it might be a motley, you know, mess of colors and in different poems and different pictures, but man, I think if we just allowed them to express themselves on our walls a little more often, then maybe that's an entry place to owning the learning that I'm gonna get for the coming school year.

SPEAKER_04 33:02

Express shows what's Steven gonna throw down?

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Yeah, what you're gonna go, yeah, I'm gonna go left field at like I uh I'm uh I'm uh a little different, a little controversial here. So we think about school, many people do, as a place where kids are doing work, we're doing academic work, and we look at the language, the nomenclature by which we address things like turn in your work, show your work, uh, what work our students doing. What if we shifted our thinking, adults, kids, and parents? So again, I'm I'm really vibing on what Gianni said about it's an everybody problem. What if we transition that away from a work space but to an experience space? Yeah. Like what are the experiences that students should have? And we literally took all out the curriculum, okay? And aside from just like we're coming to this class to like read and write things on paper? Where's the experiences? Where are we physically going to dive deep into that? Who is a person that we're gonna talk to outside of the school gates that has authentic expertise and knowledge in this particular discipline that we're studying? And so what if we made the learning experience an experience-rich environment rather than a work-rich environment? Because if you ask me the question of would I like to have some experiences or would I like to go to work, uh I think we will all know the answer to that. Like, yeah, I want to have experience. When you're going on vacation, you want to have experiences. I want to ride the roller coaster, I want to go on the beach, I want to go do something. Um, let's transform the educational experience through the lens of experiences, uh, not work. But I will leave the last word to my esteemed brother Johnny, excuse me, Dr. Clarkson, to leave us with the last hot take. Any last now, you've been dropping some knowledge on us. I really like the VIP room. I want to see the VIP room, the VIP A lounge.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

I'm gonna take a picture. It's it's pretty dope.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

Mine's gotta be the VIP S tier. Here we go. We're S tier.

SPEAKER_04 35:11

We can post the photo underneath our podcast. Yeah, yeah, we can put it in some of the shows.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

I like it. I like it. And we'll have you back for season four when we move to a vlog of video podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

But I'll give you the last word, brother. What do you say?

SPEAKER_00 35:26

So I would say my my controversial hot take is that uh community parent engagement equals graduation tickets. If you know, when graduation happens, everyone wants to clap, and you know, Big Mama wants a ticket, and Auntie Shirley, and you know, Uncle Jimbo, everybody wants a ticket. I'm saying that there should be a list of things that as a parent we need you to volunteer at the school to get, which will equal more tickets of your allotment. So let's say every school gets 10 tickets. Well, uh the Sneed family has, you know, worked concessions, did concessions at the uh for the play. Uh they also were one of the uh football moms. Well, you know what? That equals six additional tickets. So you can bring six additional people for this communal event that means a lot to everybody. And I think that would buy in a larger amount of engagement amongst parents. So then the great thing about it is that you know, if there's we there's more tickets than the venue, then we know that we now have a larger communal space, so everybody wins.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

You know, to an extent, I didn't even know that uh uh that necessarily in that system, but in in a lot of private school environments, you you as a parent have to commit to certain things in the school because I think they're trying to cultivate that uh uh school community. But that's a very hot take that's very, very hot. Very, very, very spicy.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Jay, take us out. Thank you very, very much for joining us, Dr. Clarkson. We are done with our second episode. Two episodes down, hopefully, many, many more to come. Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_04 37:04

Let's hope.

SPEAKER_02 37:05

Let's hope, yes. And uh and more jokes by Jay. More more jokes, more uh, more huge takeaways from our guests. I mean, we've had some pretty good guests here to start. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and guess what? We have another guest lined up for the third episode. Join us next time. We're gonna be diving into a conversation that I know you're not gonna want to miss. It is a nice follow-up to this one. Once we figure out how to get the kids excited about coming to school, we are now gonna focus on how do we get kids to come to school and and sort of build a space that can tackle some of these attendance issues. For this episode, we're gonna be joined by the assistant superintendent of Oak Park Schools, Shayna Murphy. All right. In the meantime, I like her. Yeah, we like I like her too. Yeah, she's good. She's good. She is, she's inspirational. You're gonna you all who are listening are gonna love Shayna Murphy.

SPEAKER_03 37:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:58

In the meantime, don't forget to follow or subscribe to Teaching Tomorrow wherever you get your podcasts, and leave us a rating or comment. Smash the like. It helps other educators find these conversations. And if you liked what you heard, share this episode with a colleague who could use a little inspiration for the year. I'm I'm feeling pretty inspired right now for the start of the school year. I think we're off to a really good start. Until next time, keep teaching, keep learning, and keep building the tomorrow your students can believe in because here at Teaching Tomorrow, we believe in you. See you next time.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Bye bye.

For the inaugural episode of the Teaching Tomorrow Podcast with Jay, Katie, & Steven the 2021 Michigan Teacher of the Year and Oak Park High School ELA teacher Owen Bondono joins our hosts to explore how teachers can build strong relationships, create inclusive classrooms, and spark positive momentum at the start of the year. Discover strategies that help students feel connected, confident, and ready to learn.

 

Hosts: Jay Haffner - Literacy Consultant, Katie Morrison - Mathematics Education Consultant, Dr. Steven Snead - Supervisor of Curriculum & Assessment.

This podcast is proudly brought to you by Oakland Schools Intermediate School District in the great state of Michigan. Oakland Schools is an educational service agency that offers support services to school districts that are best delivered regionally and provide cost, size and quality advantages to those we serve. Oakland Schools is an autonomous, tax-supported public school district governed by Michigan General School Laws and is one of 56 intermediate school districts (ISDs) established in Michigan in 1962.

If you are an educator in Oakland County, Michigan, check out www.oakland.k12.mi.us to explore the services and professional learning opportunities available to support you. 

Have feedback for the hosts? We'd love to hear from you! Email steven.snead@oakland.k12.mi.us to connect with us.

UNKNOWN 0:01

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 0:17

Hey, hey, everybody out there in the interwebs. Good morning, good evening, and good night or good afternoon, wherever you happen to be. This is the first, the first episode of the Teaching Tomorrow podcast. I am one of your hosts, Steve, Stephen, Dr. Sneed, whatever you want to call me. We have Katie. Hey,

SPEAKER_00 0:40

hey. Say hey. I'm so excited to be filming. This is so great. What an amazing opportunity. Recording? Are

SPEAKER_03 0:47

we showing our age? We're like, we're filming. We're taping.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 0:51

We're taping the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Taping it now.

SPEAKER_03 0:53

There's like a reel in the back. One, yes. Somebody's like rolling it. And we got my main man, Jay. Jay with us. How you guys doing? Happy to be here today. Recording. Jay, are you an AI? Am I an AI? Are you an AI? Or are you a real person? No, I'm a real person.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Is Katie real? No, Katie is not real. She's all AI. Well, Katie's unreal. Unreal, yeah. She

SPEAKER_03 1:17

is unreal. Unreal. Amazing. But ladies and gentlemen, this is an all real podcast. There's no artificial intelligence here at this table. There is real, genuine made intelligence at the table. So first episode, we're going to get right to it. How do we start the school year off right? That's what we're going to talk about today. How are we going to start the school year off right? We have an amazing guest we're going to bring in here in a minute. But a little bit about ourselves. I'm Dr. Steven Sneed. I'm the supervisor of curriculum assessment at Oak at Oakland Schools, a proud former teacher, data assessment guru. At least that's what people tell me. That's not what I call myself. And I'm on the board of directors of the Michigan Assessment Consortium. And I think we need to start the school year off with belonging. Belonging. Like if there's a belonging button, just smash that button. Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. But Katie, what do you say? How do we start the school year off right? For teachers listening right now, what can we do to start this year off right?

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Yeah. I mean I think belonging is a huge piece I also think like really setting the stage for like this is a place you want to be because we're doing work that's meaningful and impactful to your lives to your community like set that stage as like this this is a space that is designed for you

SPEAKER_03 2:37

yeah but how do we do that Jay how do we do that like like how like okay I'm in the classroom all right if I want to hit the belonging meaningful button what does that button look like what do I hit? I don't know. What do you say? And who are you, Jay? Like, what do you do?

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Yeah, so I'm Jay Hafner. Hey, Jay. I'm a secondary literacy consultant at Oakland Schools going into my 21st year in education, which I was thinking about the other day. It's hard to believe. He's a gentleman of

SPEAKER_03 3:04

particular

SPEAKER_02 3:05

skills. Yes, and the gray hair, happy you can't see it, but it's starting to appear. So, yeah, I think that button starts or is labeled probably community, building a sense of community and understanding going back to these kids. We're not AI. The kids are not AI. We are all human. They're all real. That's right. It's a human endeavor. And how do we build that strong sense of community and belonging inside of the classroom? We'll get the year sort of going in the right direction. But I think the more specifics are probably going to be coming from our fantastic guests.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

What? What guests do we have here today? Oh, we got some by the way we are live in studio thank you for every media for our partnership in recording in their lovely studio in downtown Royal Oak check them out if you can but yeah we have not just a guest but the guest an award winning teacher and like we like to say like well award no legit like actual actual like real award

SPEAKER_00 4:11

he has done the things

SPEAKER_03 4:13

done the things city teacher of the year? No, no, no. Township teacher of the year? Oh, no. Bigger. Bigger? Go bigger? Go

SPEAKER_00 4:23

all the way. All the

SPEAKER_03 4:24

way. All the way? Michigan teacher of the year? That's pretty good. Like the whole state? That's

SPEAKER_04 4:30

it.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

Wow, wow. Thumb all. So he probably knows a thing or two. Yeah? Ladies and gentlemen, we want to bring to you Owen. Owen, what is going on? My main man of 100 grand.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Well, apparently I've fooled you all about how much I know and what I can do. But yes, I am Owen Bondano I am the 2021 Michigan Teacher of the Year. And hi, it's nice to be here. Yeah,

SPEAKER_03 4:52

it's great to have you. It is awesome to have you. All right, so we're getting, Liz, we're getting into the nitty gritty of this topic. And we're all teachers, either current or former. I'm an old high school teacher, but also a summer camp director of elementary school age kiddos.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

I was a summer school director. Really? And a summer camp counselor and summer director when I was in college.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

Okay. What was your summer camp? Do you remember the summer camp name?

SPEAKER_00 5:20

I mean, I'm sorry, like city summer camp.

SPEAKER_03 5:21

City summer

SPEAKER_00 5:22

camp. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:23

Yeah. For anybody listening, shout out to Camp Burt Shirley in Detroit Public Schools. That's where I spent many, many summers working in a lovely lake. But enough about us and our background. What's some of your teaching background? Like what are your teaching jazz hands?

SPEAKER_01 5:36

I mean, so I also started in summer camp. Shout out to the YMCA.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Hey, okay. That's what's up. All right, Jay, come on. Where's your- Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 5:44

where's your summer camp experience?

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Come on. Watching Friday night. Friday the 13th as a kid is pretty

SPEAKER_01 5:49

much where my experience was. But I went to Wayne State for my degree. And while I was there, I was a special ed paraprofessional for a few years. I was a substitute teacher in quite a number of places for a few years. And then I have taught, I'm a secondary English teacher and I've taught everything from sixth grade to 12th. I'm currently teaching 11th grade ELA and creative writing at Oak Park High

SPEAKER_03 6:16

Shout out to Oak Park High School. Oak Park. I think there's a theme at the table here with Oak Park. We're all former and our current employees. It's a good place to be. Yeah. Yeah. So that's your background. So, Owen, you had PD today. I sure did. Right? And the kids come back next week. You excited? You ready?

SPEAKER_01 6:36

I'm excited. I would not say I'm ready. Not ready. Okay. But I always feel like I'm not ready until it's been a few days in. Okay. Yeah. I was

SPEAKER_02 6:41

going

SPEAKER_03 6:42

to

SPEAKER_02 6:42

say,

SPEAKER_03 6:42

are you ever? No. Are you ever truly ready? No. Yeah. This is real for you because we talk about like how do we start the school year off right? You're literally starting it in a matter of days. So how are you going to do that, man? How do we start the school year off right? What do we need to do at the classroom level to make sure that this thing is going to thing? You

SPEAKER_01 7:03

know, I've been listening to these ideas and belonging and all this stuff. Great. Sure. So what does the button look like? Right. I think for me, the button looks like, you know, we talk about like icebreakers and community builders and those are extremely important. But and, you know, it's great that so many schools now are building in time for that. Schools are saying, you know, first week, first two weeks, nothing but, you know, no content yet. Just get to know each other and do those things. But then I hear these teachers who are going, oh, that is too much time. What are we going to do? Play these dumb little games for two weeks or whatever. Right. And I think the secret is, is that you can do those things while practicing the processes of your content. So like for ELA, you know, sure, we're going to do games. We're going to do name ball where you throw a ball around and you have to say the person's name before you throw it and then thank the person by name when you catch it and create a pattern and try to go faster and all this stuff right we're going to do that sure and then after that after we do that for 10 minutes or whatever then they're going to get a letter from me about who I am and they're going to write a letter back to me about who they are you know and so we're getting to know each other we're building a sense of belonging but we're doing it in ways that practice content and I also I think my cheat sheet for everybody is you as a teacher what do you struggle with and how can you sort of like gamify that a little bit like I'm terrible at names like terrible at names and not just in the classroom all the time I'm just really bad at names so the other day a few years ago I bought these magnetic name tag holders they're like the plastic name tag holders you might have like a convention badge in or something but they've got a magnet on the back and then you just put that on your clothes that way so it doesn't make holes in your clothing and so on the first day everybody gets a little piece of construction paper cut to the right size they can decorate it however they want but their name has to be on there they put it in that little thing and for the first like almost month of school when they walk into class they go to their hours bin take out their name tag and put it on and put it back in the bin at the end of the hour so that we are seeing them and seeing their face and you know I let them do stuff like pick out a sticker and put on there and then maybe one of our icebreakers another day would be explaining why you chose that sticker what does it say about you like stuff like that you know because we're writing and all those things this whole time so I use cheat sheets like that to build the community where'd you get it from like Amazon or

SPEAKER_03 9:18

Amazon is not endorsing

SPEAKER_01 9:20

this this is non-paid right no sponsorship but that is where I bought it but I love doing stuff like that and I one of the things I started doing a few years ago was this project in the first couple weeks called the alphabet of admiration where they pick a letter out of a hat and then they have to do a quick presentation that is about a person that they find admirable who's first or last name starts with the letter they pulled. And it's super simple. Like all of my, my only instructions on it are like, you got to tell me some basic biographical facts. You got to tell me what you find interesting about them. You got to tell me what you find admirable about them. And you got to tell me where you got your information. And that's like all the guidelines I give. So it's very low, like cognitive load, but I'm watching the whole time. And I'm seeing who finds this really easy, who finds this really difficult, who's scared of presenting, who's going to, at this point of the year, just put in the bare minimum and kind of try to skate by, who's going to Who's my keener? Like all those things. Right. And I'm observing all that in this setting. And then at the end of it, we put up an alphabet around the room like it's an elementary school classroom, except instead of it being like B is for ball. It's like B is for Beyonce and Barack Obama and Angela Bassett, you know, and whoever else. And none of them would do Angela Bassett, but I would.

SPEAKER_04 10:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

Yeah. But yeah, I love doing stuff like that where we're using the skills that we're going to use all year and I'm getting to see how they do with those skills. But it's all low cognitive load. It's all super full of student choice. And it's interspersed with these community building exercises and games and stuff like that that we do, which I also like when I hear teachers who are complaining about doing those kinds of games. I think like, man, you would not like my classroom because I'm a big believer that, sure, it's great to establish community, but you have to maintain it. So

SPEAKER_02 11:08

maintaining the community that you're building.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

So once we've played a bunch of these games in the first couple of weeks, I'll put the names of all of them in a hat. And every Monday we start off by a kid pulling around the hat and we spend 10 minutes doing that because that's reinforcing the community that we have with each other. And it's like making sure that when things go wrong, you know, I love when I see that kid who, you know, student A and student B would never think they have anything in common with each other, but because they get to know each other and they feel connected to each other. When student B, who's normally outgoing and gregarious and all that, comes in and puts their head down, student A is like, hey, you all right? You know, and I'm kind of watching out of the corner of my eye going like, ha ha. I did that.

SPEAKER_03 11:48

Right. Well, so the big thing that I'm picking up on what you're saying is, and I totally 100% agree, I can see why he was 2021 Michigan Teacher of the Year. Shout out to Michigan Teacher of the Year. Sometimes, like, teachers are presented with this, I think, a false choice of, like, you're building community, you're doing fun stuff, belonging stuff, or you're doing content. Like, ne'er shall the two meet. And I think the sweet spots that you're getting at is we can still build community through the context of rigorous academic learning. And we want to scale that rigor over time. You know, the first day, we're not going to, you know, wallop kids over the head, but we do want to get them on that train. So I absolutely love, love, love that idea. One of the things that, you know, I had done back in my day in 1782 in my time in the classroom. You have some gray hair up there on that dome. I'm just pulling that out for those who can't see you now. I got some years behind me. But within the first week, because I love writing, I was also an English teacher. Shout out to all the English teachers out there. And

SPEAKER_00 12:59

shout out to the math

SPEAKER_03 13:00

teachers. We

SPEAKER_00 13:01

also got it going on.

SPEAKER_03 13:02

Katie is a math girlie. That's her jazz hands. I would create cooperative circles, I mean really with the type of desk, squares. And I would have students in interview each other to find out what are their strengths what are they really good at what are they proud of what are they love and a couple years I'd have students because I'm an extrovert so you're going to get extroversion out of my class sorry guys is have that student be a hype person for the other person in the classroom and everybody takes a turn getting hyped up and what joy does that bring in and it really was really fun in the classroom to see kids get really excited and somebody hyping them up about something that they're really proud of and

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Well, here's a good game you can play right before that one. So you're building to that. It's called name tag swap. So in this case, we have the reusable name tags in my room that we use, but you could use regular name tags or even just like index cards or whatever. But you have everybody put their name on an index card or name tag or whatever. And then in their brains, they think of two true facts about them. This is not two truths and a lie or anything like that. You're just thinking of two true facts by yourself. And then you have them partner up and they introduce themselves and they say their two true facts. And then you give them the twist, which is that now you're going to trade name tags and you're going to go find a new partner and introduce yourself as this new person with their two facts. So if Katie and I had just paired up, I'm now taking Katie's name tag and introducing myself to Jay as Katie and saying, my name is Katie and here are my two facts about me. And you do a bunch of rounds of that. So they're all mixed up and then you put them in a circle and you go around and they have to introduce themselves as whatever name tag they're holding with the two facts. And then it's also kind of like a game of telephone. So you say like, okay, I have Katie's name tag and Katie's two facts are this and this. Is that accurate? And then either Katie's like, yep, or we all laugh at the Silliness that's come out of it. And then you give Katie back her name tag. And so we're getting to know each other that way. And also like up and moving around and like talking to people we wouldn't normally talk to. But it's not so personal at that moment. And then you could go into something deeper like interviewing each other and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 15:03

Pretty

SPEAKER_03 15:03

nice. I feel like if I could insert like a bomb sound. Like, yeah, that's awesome. Katie, you were really resonating with what I was saying. Like how did that, what does it look like in a mask? mathematics classroom or does it look exactly the same what do you think

SPEAKER_00 15:19

yeah I mean I think potentially it could look the same I think like often we think like math content has to be like so separate from being able to just be creative and like writing about yourself and like thinking about who you are and so I don't think it needs to be so different I wonder though as I'm listening to what Owen's saying about this added layer of like how could you build sort of like these low stakes introduction to the math content that still build community you know I think about like many math challenges that you could do or you know you think about like the the marshmallows and the toothpicks and like building structures out of them and like really getting to this like stem space that builds community while also like infusing math and I think it's so important in a math classroom a science classroom I mean all classrooms but I really think about the classrooms that kids when they see that on the schedule a smile isn't the first thing they think it's like the first couple weeks of school are so important to say like you're going to enter into a new class and I promise you I'm going to be on this journey with you and we're going to really think about math differently in a really beautiful space and you don't have to love it but I promise I'm going to like walk this journey with you to help you see like your strengths in it

SPEAKER_01 16:37

yeah and so many of the activities we do as icebreakers community builders like those structures can be used academically one of my favorite ones is is back to back face to face so they find a partner they stand back to back with them you ask a question give them 30 seconds of think time and then when you say front to front they turn around and talk about it until you tell them to stop and then you say back to back and they go find a new partner they get a new question repeat right and so back to school time I'm asking questions like if you could have any superpower what would it be you know what would be your entrance song if you had an entrance song stuff like that but then halfway through the semester I'm asking them like what do you think is the most interesting theme from the novel we just read or you know whatever Or even like, I might put a question on the board, here's a sentence, and what's wrong with it grammatically? You know, whatever. I love ELA in part because there are no wrong answers as long as you can justify it. And I understand that math is a little different than that. There may in fact be definitive correct answers. But I still think that, you know, these kinds of structures can work no matter what your content is. And I'm lucky enough now that my teaching partner, shout out to Desiree Fuller, we get to train people all over the state on on restorative practices. And one of the things that I think we struggle the most with getting people to understand is that a circle is not just like a touchy-feely thing, and it's certainly not just a when something's gone wrong solution, but we teach in circle all the time. And not just like when it's structured like a Socratic seminar and stuff like that where a circle feels obvious, or a class discussion where it lends itself very naturally, but we do all kinds of learning that is in that shape and using the expectations, the talking piece and all those things, so that... It doesn't become a, oh, we're in circles, something's gone wrong or whatever, you know. And it's so wonderful because they're looking at each other and they're present with each other in that shape in ways that they aren't sometimes when they're at their separate desks and whatever else. But all of these structures that we teach should be both community and academic.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

Yeah. So just thinking through some of the things that Owen is saying, I think it's really interesting when we think about the moves we make inside of our classrooms early on in the year to to build community, but also how important it is to ensure that we're not doing these things, that our classrooms don't become a silo. And thinking through like, how do we as a larger school come together to own this idea of building community, owning every minute to teach, and so community becomes culture at that point. And if we start surrounding- This is J-I, not A-I. This is J-I. But if we start building that culture across all of our classrooms and these shared experiences for the students, what impact might that have? And thinking through how do we start the school year off right, teachers start the school before students, and ways in which we approach community and culture is important

SPEAKER_03 19:39

early in the year. I want to shift gears and throw, not a curve bar, but a thing that's very important I mean, we're recording this podcast in 2025, where parent involvement in school over the past couple years has been really, really important. And parents, rightfully so, drive their kiddos' education. But a study in 2025, a Cambridge-led study, found that it takes parents about a year, a year to accurately understand how their child feels about schools. Parents often overestimate classroom happiness and underestimate school enjoyment what do you think about that and what do you like how do you engage with parents towards the beginning of the school year to get the school year started off right

SPEAKER_01 20:25

oh yeah

SPEAKER_03 20:26

in the home with the parent

SPEAKER_01 20:27

I mean so I I'm already before class starts before I have my first kid I've got you know things like my remind set up and I'm messaging parents you know I added their information off of the system and I'm introducing myself and I'm sending out a little like welcome newsletter and stuff like that right but I also think it's important that you make positive contacts before negative right I have a teacher in my building who makes it a point to every single day make two phone calls home and just like rotates through everybody to make sure that everybody has that touch point and I think these are things that elementary it's sort of baked in a little more easily and secondary especially when you have hundreds of students and so on it can be a lot more difficult to do so a system like I'm going to call two every day. You know, yes, that does mean that it's going to be quite a while before you get to that last kid, but you're still going to get to all of them. And it's interesting. Could you read the part again about what they over and underestimate? I need to hear it

SPEAKER_03 21:27

again. Yeah. Yeah. They overestimated their classroom happiness and they underestimated the enjoyment that they had in the playground. That was the specific point of the study that

SPEAKER_01 21:39

they underestimated the playground. I wish I still got recess up here in 11th grade. I wish we still got recess. I mean, don't we all? Yeah. But I think that makes total sense to me, especially because we know that students, well, all human beings focus on extreme emotions, right? So when your kid comes home and is telling you how it was the worst day ever, they're overlooking all the good stuff that happened and vice versa. When they come home really excited to tell you about the cool, exciting thing that happened, they're not telling you about the stuff that was maybe not so great. And students, I think young people have that in an exaggerated kind of a way. And we all know, too, how much Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All those kinds of things. Because, well, I only have 50 minutes with the kids and I only have them in this very limited context, ELA, reading and writing, speaking and listening. This is the context in which I have them and which I have a sphere of influence. But I feel like I get to see such a complete picture of them and that picture is not complete without their home. Right.

SPEAKER_03 23:40

Yeah. Well, Katie, you were talking about earlier the bridge that I'm connected between Owen and Katie is we're on this journey together right and I think for a lot of kids you know I have a soft spot for kids who've had historically a tough time in school and parents who've had just a tough time parenting right and so sometimes it can feel like school's the big scary place that people are lording over you and there's judgment and there's fear and I love that positionality of hey I'm on this journey with you and I love the language that You just use, like, how can I help you? Like, how can I help you, you know, in your home manage things with the kiddo? I had a cell phone for a very, very long time, although I did grow up in an era where we did not have cell phones. Yes, I'm that old. Gray hair. The gray hair. The gray hair is plural. But I would have, kind of speaking of making positive phone calls at home, I would have parent phone numbers like saved in my phone like I don't have to go to my star power school look it up like oh yeah my favorite I always call it my favorite students I got your number on speed dial in the phone and I'm not coming at it well here's what they did today it's like hey man hey they did a rocked out job today could be something big or could be something small but that quick win for the kids super super important to kind of position ourselves like I'm not like the quote unquote government authorities That's, you know, the only way you get an A is through me, right? Like, no, like we're on this journey together. How can I help you, the parent? And how can I help you, the kid? Oh, and before we let you go, any last words of wisdom for teachers, school leaders, coaches out there in getting this school year started off right?

SPEAKER_01 25:38

I think it's important for us to remember that every, you know, it's trite to say that every kid can achieve and that, you know, every kid, no matter the challenge, can be reached and all those things. But I also have a soft spot for those who have struggled a little bit, those who have historically not had such great success in academic settings. And I think that the key, so my big sister is also a teacher. Shout out to Professor Brandilyn Tossalt at the University of New Mexico. Shout out, big sis. But she told me once when I was new to this that the key for her was was finding something that she truly loved about every student. And I think that that remains true for me. There is something to love about every student. And sometimes it's something like, I love how much your mama loves you. At least at first it is. But if you can find something to truly love and to truly uplift about every kid, find that little success in them early on, those stack. And even if one kid's success is they turned in a great essay and the other kid's great success is that they didn't shout a profanity today, like, cool. Call that out. Praise it. I'm really happy with the contribution you made to our culture today. That was really awesome and I'm really proud of you. And those things stack. And before you know it, those little ones become big ones and then you got them. You've hooked them and you reel them in. I don't know how to fish. Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_00 27:01

It sounds accurate. I mean, that's half the battle, right?

SPEAKER_03 27:05

I'm allergic to fish, so

SPEAKER_00 27:07

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

I'm allergic to fish. Well, I'm allergic to pineapples, so weird food allergies.

SPEAKER_03 27:14

Oh, you're missing out so much but some people tell me like fish you're missing out on so much I'm like yeah but the analogy holds I think right like hooking and reeling them in to create that belonging in an authentic way that builds upon cognition within academic content so no we're not saying just do silly games for two weeks and then you'll do the real stuff no we do the real stuff from day one that's day one Owen thank you so much for dropping those bombs Those nuggets of wisdom. I love it. Stick around for us because now we're going to do hot takes.

SPEAKER_04 27:49

Yes,

SPEAKER_03 27:49

yes. Where each of us is going to have one crazy zany thing. It might be evidence-based. It might not be, but it's your truth about how you start school year off right. So I'll start first. Give everybody an A.

SPEAKER_04 28:04

Oh, there you

SPEAKER_03 28:04

go. Give them an A. Give them an A. Because some of the kids have never, ever logged in PowerSchool or Mysore or whatever you use and has ever seen an A. Get something in which all kids be successful at the beginning of the school year and make parents log in so that they can see, want to build their confidence up over time. So I'm not saying, I'm not saying give them an A, but ensure that their student success so that you can start the year off right. Katie, what about you?

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Yes. And then tell them to log into PowerSchool so they see that and that feeling that they get of like, I can do this. That's attainable. Yes. Live off of that high. So I was thinking this is going to be crazy. And then I feel like what Oban dropped for us, I'm like, okay, mine's kind of can So I don't know like how outlandish it is. But I'm thinking like start the school year off with like a mission that the kids have to solve. Right. Like I'm talking real world mission, like elementary kids, like we got to save our pollinators. How do we do it? High school kids, you got to earn a thousand dollars in a week for school. How are you going to do it? Right. Like a mission, build community through that, because once the kids believe that their learning matters, they're going to do what you ask them to do and they're going to go with you anyway. Hey,

SPEAKER_02 29:16

Jay, what about you, brother? and let them know that they own this thing that we call the school year. You can keep them. You can hook them and reel them in, not only for the year until June, but you actually hook them for the rest of their school experience and hopefully beyond because that's the ultimate goal here is to give them, prepare them, have them ready to succeed in this life beyond the school. Lifelong learners. Lifelong learners.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

All right, I got one. Yeah. Students are never too old to do classroom jobs. They never age out of classroom jobs. Look around your classroom. You talked about AI earlier. People use AI to automate things that they do all the time. What are the procedures and stuff that happen every time, every day, every class hour in your class? And how can you hand that responsibility off to a kid? And kids of all ages will thrive on that, especially the ones that are a little more challenging. If you can be like, hey, you're my off-the-wall kid. You are going to pass out the laptops every day. You got them now. They have responsibility and they're with you. And that's

SPEAKER_03 30:46

voice, right? Ownership. You have some ownership in it. Good jobs. Responsibility. Yes, I'm all for that.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Yeah, so I just want to leave everyone with what is your bold move that you are starting off this school year with? Let's put aside what we've done traditionally, what we always do, and really think about what's that one thing that I'm really going to push? Is it giving every kid an A? Is it giving classroom jobs? Is it setting up a mission? What are you going to do that's and inspire kids and show them that they belong in your classroom

SPEAKER_03 31:18

belonging journey

SPEAKER_00 31:19

together the belonging button

SPEAKER_03 31:20

the belonging bucket like smash that speaking of smash Jay you have a message for us for next week

SPEAKER_00 31:26

yes why should everyone join us yeah

SPEAKER_02 31:29

I do well first before we get into next week let's just recognize that we are wrapping up our inaugural first episode so yeah we did it it's is the phrase it's in the can still used.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

So I've never heard of that. It's

SPEAKER_03 31:49

an older

SPEAKER_02 31:49

phrase. Katie's the one at the table without the gray hair. I still got them. Huge thank you to Owen Bondano for joining us today and all of you for spending time with us as we kick off the school year together. Hopefully you found something here to inspire your own practice, spark new ideas in the classroom, and the the school community. Next time, where are we heading with episode number two? We're going to be diving into a conversation. How do we get kids excited about school? A million-dollar question, and the million-dollar answer is going to be coming from educator extraordinaire Dr. Gianni Clarkson, who's going to be joining us as our guest. Oh, yeah. I can't wait for that one. It's going to be exciting. It'll be thoughtful. Practical. Yeah. But it's going to be energizing. He's going to bring the energy. Everyday inspiration for everyday teachers. He brings the energy. In the meantime, don't forget to follow or subscribe to a Teaching Tomorrow podcast wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a rating or comment. Smash the like. It helps other educators find these conversations that we're having here today. And if you liked what you heard, share this episode with a colleague who could use a little inspiration for the year ahead. Yeah. Caring is caring. It is. And until next time, keep teaching, keep learning, and keep building the tomorrow your students can believe in. Because here at Teaching Tomorrow, we believe in you. Yes,

SPEAKER_03 33:25

we believe in you. That was good. See you next time. See ya. See ya.